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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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usuallydormant · 17/12/2018 12:33

The GFA starts with the premise that the people of NI wish to remain part of the UK until such time as they decide otherwise, not the other way round.

But the GFA also allows for the people of NI to identify as Irish (and therefore EU citizens) if they so wish and it is facilitated by a myriad of cross border arrangements, which means the land border with RoI is actually prioritized. I'm guessing post Brexit, a majority of NI will hold RoI passports.

Brexit was always incompatible with the GFA. Plus RoI is a co-signatory. The UK can't just unilaterally decide to chuck it out because it forgot it was part of the UK and just remembered to late that it was going to put a spanner in the works.

Additionally, if you put a hard border on the island, , NI will leave the union, democratically, once the economic shit storm hits. Esp as there will be no money from WM or the EU coming in. I really don't see the point in putting all this emphasis on protecting a union that Brexit is going to tear assunder anyway... You can have a fudge with the sea or lose NI. And I'm not saying this because I secretly want a UI, because I don't - I don't think it is in RoI's interest.

howabout · 17/12/2018 12:33

Misti there are just as many examples of NI/Ireland existing cross-border arrangements to demonstrate that the border will be no harder than it already is even with No Deal. eg non-aligned VAT.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:34

My thoughts why the DUP supported Brexit - despite it being far more dangerous for Unionism than Remain:

  • They wanted to leverage it to wreck the GFA Like other idiot Brexiters, they expected to be negotiating bilaterally with countries, not with the EU as a single unit.

They want to remove the good bits for the Nationalists, e.g. 50:50 police recruitment

They also see that Unionists will become a minority within 10 / 15 /20 years -probably sooner now ! - so they are desperate to remove the right to a border poll.
They want to gerrymander the border again, to remove the 3 heavily Nationalist counties

  • They blindly followed their hard right Tory & fascist chums

  • Like Boris, they didn't expect Leave to win, so they had some "cunning plan" for the aftermath, with bruised Leaver Tories.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:38

HowAbout If GB leaves the EU, in particular the SM, it will no longer have all the EU laws, internal monitoring checks, ECJ, maybe not even the same standards
e.g. after the USA FTA that the Tories are so eager for.

The EU has to seal its external borders with a 3rd country that is not part of the SM.
Otherwise non-compliant goods could travel through the entire EU via the RoI

howabout · 17/12/2018 12:44

Or they could just perform the necessary checks for goods entering rEU via Ireland? It is after all an island whose main trading route to the rEU is via the UK which, as a non-member state, will have the necessary facilities in place.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:44

Currently there are no checks between NI and the RoI.

The existing phytosanitary checks between GB and NI assume that the UK is compliant with all EU standards and rules.
If the UK becomes a 3rd country, the existing checks will not suffice.

The EU will no longer be able to check that all goods in the UK follow its rules & standards and will no longer be able to appeal to the ECJ if it suspects this is not the case.

May and the Tory party would not be tearing themselves to pieces if the solution to the EU external border were so easy !

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 12:45

BCF
I am not suggesting that repatriation would be a 'thing' but the shits in Westminster are using the legal position of this to gain leverage and if a no deal really does come about many of us are depending on a degree of goodwill and are likely to loser some aspects of the current arrangement, although I think that it has been established that people can remain but will need to check on the paperwork. France has said that new ID documents will need to be sorted out in the future. It may just be a reissue of a Carte de Sejour with a bit of luck.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:47

Howabout Your suggestion is a border between the RoI and rEU

However, the RoI has NOT chosen to Irexit
and Irish public opinion of 90% against makes this v unlikely

The RoI trades more with the E26 than it does with the UK anyway and far more the E26 than with just NI.

It makes no sense for Ireland, politically or economically, to carry out an Irexit in all but name

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:48

If the UK chooses to screw itself, in the end that is the UK's decision

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:52

Sorry, LeClerc I thought you meant E27 expats in the UK

UK expats in the EU would be treated at least as well as those of any other 3rd country,
i.e. can apply for permanent residence in their host country after 5 years legal self-supporting residence

I have also heard reports that Tusk / the European Parliament are preparing to pass measures before 29 March to make the settlement process much easier for UK expats.

howabout · 17/12/2018 12:53

I am not suggesting Irexit at all. Merely suggesting it adopts a pragmatic approach to trade interaction between itself and the EU and the UK as it does when using intermediate goods from any other non-member state.

Ireland can no more insist the UK stays in the EU with it than the UK can insist on Irexit.

GirlsBlouse17 · 17/12/2018 12:57

If the UK chooses to screw itself, in the end that is the UK's decision

I think it is Parliament's decision at the moment to screw the country over. We have our hands tied right now

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 13:01

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FestiveForestieraNoel · 17/12/2018 13:03

howabout Ireland is IN the EU. It's part of the club, following club rules.

It's not stopping the UK from leaving.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:23

Yes, the UK can leave if it wants, but it has no right to demand that either the EU or the RoI drastically change to accommodate the particular Brexit they want.

usuallydormant · 17/12/2018 13:26

Merely suggesting it adopts a pragmatic approach to trade interaction between itself and the EU and the UK as it does when using intermediate goods from any other non-member state.

It's called the backstop Smile Actually there was a lot of work done by Barnier and his team to "de-dramatize" the backstop and show just how it could all work in practice - there could be a minimal amount of checks needed between GB and NI, trade could be tracked so that any irregular peaks could be investigated but standard flows left alone. There are already checks in place for animals and animal products and there are other ways of checking goods than counting them in and out at Larne (e.g. on site checks at big traders like Bombardier).

What the backstop is trying to protect is the daily lives of the thousands of NI and RoI citizens who travel, trade and work across a porous border on a daily basis. One of the Tony Connelly podcasts had an excellent discussion of how straightforward it could be, forget which one unfortunately.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 13:30

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Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:33

mother I have supported the principle of Irish reunification since I was 15

That was when I saw the Bloody Sunday massacre on TV - British soldiers murdering peaceful irish civil rigjhts demonstrators -
and then in the months following there was no justice, just a coverup by the whole GB Establishment

When the troops first moved in to NI in 1968, I saw them as the good guys, going to protect Catholics against the dreadful brutality of the RUC and B Specials.

Bloody Sunday opened my eyes.
We discussed it in school and it caused me to go to the library and research Irish history
I was horrified to read about 8 centuries of brutal oppression, massacres and finally the forced partition, under threat of GB troops being sent to slaughter Irish resistance

It opened my eyes to British colonialism in other countries too and to the fact that the British state is still far from benign
it was my political awakening - I was a Conservative before that.

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 13:36

Or they could just perform the necessary checks for goods entering rEU via Ireland? It is after all an island whose main trading route to the rEU is via the UK which, as a non-member state, will have the necessary facilities in place.

Sorry? Is this a suggestion for a border to be put in betweenROI and the rest of EU because WE want to leave? FUCKING HELL ARE LEAVERS DELUDED! the arrogance and ignorance of that statement are fucking unbelievable!
No - ROI are not going to cut themselves off from their trading partners and the EU are not going to create internal borders just because some British cunts think they should get everything that they want and bugger everyone else.
Fuck me that has made me angry.

You decided to leave. You are now reaping the benefits of that incredibly stupid decision. It is your and your fellow leavers fault and nobody else's. And no - no one is going to step in and bend over backwards and act against their own interests in order to help you achieve this impossible thing you demanded.

fucking hell! Angry Angry Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:37

To be exact, the massacre wasn't televised, but the photos were and the interviews with the survivors and the bereaved.
28 innocent civilians shot, 14 murdered, noone convicted of this

Even now, the Tory right and the DUP have fiercely opposed investigating British soldiers who have committed this and other crimes,
while at the same time demanding that IRA terrorists "on the loose" be jailed.

There should either be an amnesty for all who committed atrocities, or the army & security services should be prosecuted

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 13:44

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:45

pretzels I'm outraged too.

But this is common among Leavers who actually realise the implications of the NI border and the GFA:
they expect Ireland to roll over for GB and "know its place"

Hence the the Tory hate for Varadkhar in particular and Ireland in general

However, both Ireland and the EU have been working on ways to help irish trade at least, with infrastructure builds, EU funding, ramping up RoI comnnections to the EU mainland, e.g.

‘Brexit-busting’ ferry launched from Dublin Port

These were originally intended for GB !
The first of several to run between the RoI & EU mainland:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-busting-ferry-launched-from-dublin-port-1.3468760

If all the parking lanes on the 235m long boat were laid end to end, it would stretch to almost 8 kilometres, making it
the world’s largest short sea roll-on roll-off vessel.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:48

Mother The solution is either Remain, or a Brexit that leaves frictionless trade between the whole Uk and the EU - that would require SM+CU+more besides

it would also require the UK to accept the 4 pillars of the SM

That would be possible, with extension - if there is the will on the UK side - within the WA transition
The backstop is only there in case there is no agreement; it is not supposed to be the final stte.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/12/2018 13:48

icant please accept this Glitterball closest MN thing I could find to a trophy and standing ovation

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 13:53

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