Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
howabout · 17/12/2018 11:28

The one-sided nature of the Backstop and their rigid approach so far makes it difficult for the EU to "sell" their willingness to compromise.

The inevitable question would be: if things are up for negotiation why have they not been negotiating already - eg. they refused parallel trade talks, they withdrew DC's concessions post referendum.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 11:28

Mother You don't want the people to decide, because you don't trust them
You trust May to Revoke ? That's the only option you seem to want
I put the chance of her doing this at about 20%, on 29 March

jasjas1973 · 17/12/2018 11:31

Mistigri

that is all i am saying, we are effectively still in the EU, legally? of course not.
BUT from the pov of companies & travelers, nothing has changed..so to speak! apart from the lack of representation..... a huge issue for leave and remain.

Agree Motherof options that are not yet able to be delivered such as Norway or Canada ++ shouldn't be on any possible ballot.

Why is May soooo against a PV ? surely she must realise people lost confidence in Parliament decades ago lol!

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 11:33

The idea that the Backstop is there just to piss people off and exert EU tentacles is just bollocks.
The backstop is there because we have a grown up responsibility to protect GFA. If you have a better idea that protects GFA, bring it out. Otherwise, put some big girl/boy pants on and accept an imperfect Withdrawal Agreement that gets us a transition and protects GFA.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 11:34

The UK invoked A50, so iimediately became a country about to become a non-member
Hence has no further say in how the EU develops.

The EU isn't being inflexible about refusing to change its rules for a non-member
Any Brexiter who voted assuming they would change were very ignorant

They are satisfying precisely the A50 conditions as laid down in the text:

  • past obligations - exit bill
  • continuing obligations - GFA & expats
  • future relationship - a WA They have offered us a transition, which is not in WA
TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 11:35

You mean you don't trust the people to vote the way you want

No I mean that a PV is the most absurd way to try to resolve this that I can think of.

We know that many people fundamentally do not understand the questions or their consequences. We know that many people are still brainwashed by the proganda surrounding the last one.

We have not got to the bottom of the dodgy dealing around the last one, so we can’t 100% rule out dodgy dealing in this.

And we have not learnt the practical lessons about running referendums and had time to put in place safeguards that countries like Ireland has.

It seems to me that Remainers who favour a PV trust the people will vote the way they want. Which is exactly what went wrong last time.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 11:41

The WA is a blind Brexit.

It resolves nothing. It's just the settlement to leave the EU.

In theory we could end up with a EEA deal, a Canada deal or even a WTO only style deal (which excludes NI) from the WA

The media should be stressing this very loud and clearly.

The fact it doesn't should be a very big warning sign to anyone talking about a second ref.

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 11:44

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

jasjas1973 · 17/12/2018 11:44

accept an imperfect Withdrawal Agreement that gets us a transition and protects GFA

Yes of course it protects the GFA (essential) at the end of transition, we are, potentially, back to square one, with endless argument as to what happens next....
Does anyone really think we will negotiate a future trade relationship with the EU within 2 years?
EFTA, Canada, Turkey, japan or anything in-between, no-deal? which agencies we can or not re join, how much to pay in.... its an endless fucking nightmare.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 11:47

Tatiana It isn't that I am confident the decision will be Remain

It is that the alternative is being confident that May will Revoke, because only she can legally do this

  • the chances of her resigning in favour of a Remain units candidate are very slim

We might wait until 29 March, hoping she'll revoke at the last minute - but if she doesn't, it's too late for anything else and it'll be No Deal

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 11:48

I think in these threads (credit to GD12) we've seen the stiletto which kills off any aspiration to no deal - although I can't claim to know how the UK constitution would cope with it ...

Article 27 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, states: “A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty.”

My understanding isn't 100%, but that seems to state that as signatories to the Vienna Convention the UK is unable to put the border a no deal/WTO arrangement needs into Northern Ireland.

Pretty much full stop.

I wonder if the Civil Service would "advise" ministers that they can't create a legal situation where that could happen ?

If we can dig through the froth, is there a serious debate about this going on. Because I really don't see how a legally enforceable "no deal" as a result of a referendum result can be considered compatible with the UKs undertakings of the Vienna Convention. Which I believe even China and Russia have signed up to ?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 17/12/2018 11:48

Pippa Crerar
‏*@PippaCrerar*
NEW: Government will dramatically ramp up planning for No Deal Brexit this week. Cabinet to discuss tomorrow. Chancellor to allocate £2bn for preparations “shortly”, says No 10.

Quietrebel · 17/12/2018 11:53

DGRossetti

There's a worrying trend for leavers to question ALL historical treaties and commitments.
Judging by the way some leavers here talk about Europeans wars, we're looking at a wish to revert to the splendid isolation of the 19th century, pre the Entente Cordiale of 1904.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 11:54

If we enter transition, I'm sure we would stay for many years, while the govt finally decides what it wants and then negotiates.
The EU would in practice extend if requested, because they do want a deal; they are just not prepared to wreck their SM & rewrite their treaties to have one.

It is a blind Brexit, but at least it rules out No Deal and protects the GFA
With the backstop, it severely limits what the Brexiters can do, unless they cut NI loose - unlikely

imo, it really only leaves the option of an SM+CU+other bits - i.e. almost all we have now, but without Farage & co disrupting the European Parliament.
It may take the govt a few years to realise this.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 11:58

{The UK is well suited to this outer ring}
Only if it is chained to the floor with gaffer tape over it's mouth.

What is the 'reason' that MPs don't like the WA, is it because there is no cake? The UK is leaving. The EU does not HAVE to do anything for the UK at all, but as it has had a long relationship it wants to help. UK gov has buggered about and not come up with a better WA so this is it.
Should the EU airlift it's citizens out of the UK like the USA did in Vietnam then slam the door? The UK wanted to leave, so it doesn't get cake, as simple as that. If the UK don't like it, maybe the government should have done something about it in 2 1/2 years.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 12:00

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:01

DG This is exactly why many knowledgeable Leavers (like howabout !) want to renegotiate the GFA
The GFA is a bilateral treaty which assumes both countries are EU members, as it states in its preamble

They can't force Ireland to do this, certainly not if the aim is to be allowed to put in a border, or anything else which weakens cross-border links or takes something away from the Nationalists.

The backstop is a unique problem for the UK, which no other member would have if they wanted to Leave

  • although we seem to have put them all off ! -
and we warned about it on Westministenders before the 2016 ref.

The EU will always support a member over a non-member or a country that wants to be one.
Even if the UK revokes, it would be perfectly clear why they want to renegotiate

The USA and other countries are also likely to support Ireland in resisting British pressure to renegotiate the GFA

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:03

Mother The WA is a 2nd choice, if we get to late February and neither May nor the HoC have come out for Revoke.

It is vastly better than No Deal

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 12:04

This is exactly why many knowledgeable Leavers (like howabout !) want to renegotiate the GFA

But until that is done, it's probably not a good idea to breach it ?

howabout · 17/12/2018 12:05

DGR (also not 100% on this but) the GFA has NI at its heart. Therefore there is an inbuilt assumption that circumstances within NI, internal to the UK, dictate it and its operation.

A border in the Irish Sea is no more in compliance with the GFA than a "hard" border between NI and Ireland.

The GFA starts with the premise that the people of NI wish to remain part of the UK until such time as they decide otherwise, not the other way round.

TheElementsSong · 17/12/2018 12:08

Should the EU airlift it's citizens out of the UK like the USA did in Vietnam then slam the door?

If I wasn't stuck here, with my family to feed and protect, I think the EU should do just that. They have patiently tried to negotiate for almost 3 years and had nothing but insults and toddler-ish demands for unicorns and cake.

If the EU just slammed the door on us and we crash out with No Deal into glorious isolation, then we could see for real whether the "doom-mongering Remoaners" are right with Project Fear, or whether the BeLeaving Brexiteers are right with the Sunlit Uplands. And although from a selfish not-wanting-mass-food-riots POV I would prefer if I was wrong and the BeLeaving Brexiteers were right, I think No Deal is going to be very bad and I think that when the badness happens, the BeLeaving Brexiteers aren't really going to be cheering that they got what they "always knew they were voting for"... they'll be doing what they've been doing all along which is saying "not my fault guv!" and blaming literally everybody but themselves.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:19

There already are substantial phytosanitary checks on farming / agricultural exports from the Uk to NI.

Also, it is much less intrusive to make checks on ports / ships, rather than a long winding border that goes through farms and houses.

However, during transition, the govt could see sense and go for SM+CU and other bits which would avoid any new border anywhere

I suggest with the sunset clause that GB can choose something else after NI votes for reunification

  • demographics mean it's just a question of time

So, be patient and GB can then choose any Brexit it likes

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 12:23

The biggest trouble the UK has is it's own view of itself. It simply isn't 'special' enough in the world scheme of things.
Places like Ibiza where the main 'wealth generator' is tourism bumps along OK. What it does is sufficient to sustain the residents. The profits from the tourist trade are sufficient to overcome it's lack of agriculture etc.
The UK no longer really has this, the country can't feed itself properly so it needs to do a significant amount of trade.

It needs investment to make this happen, good trade links and a free flow of skilled workforce. Unfortunately there are many other places in the EU and worldwide where this can happen, usually easier so the UK has to really think what it is going to do. Farage and the ERG etc already have it planned, they will take their money and go somewhere else, which just leaves the other 60 Million scratching around.
Please say if I have missed any announcements of new industrial parks with Hi Tec industry and other significant investments.

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 12:24

A border in the Irish Sea is no more in compliance with the GFA than a "hard" border between NI and Ireland.

There are already checks at ports for phytosanitary purposes, as BCF said.

If you were that bothered about Northern Ireland you'd have voted remain. But you're not, so you didn't.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 12:25

I definitely don't expect an airlift - or more feasible a flotilla of ships - to take away E27 nationals,

No Deal would have to get so out of control that civil authority / essential supplies breaks down, to put them at significant risk

Even the stupid fuckups in the Tory & Labour parties would surely not let things get to failed state level.