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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Mistigri · 17/12/2018 10:38

I am equally disappointed that some remainers can't see what the WA does to the country, Misti. Please don't tell me I am confused, I am not.

You seem to be confusing the WA and the political declaration. The WA is compatible with an EEA end-point (with either NI or the whole UK in a customs union). While as a remainer that seems suboptimal to me, it's not obviously damaging to the union and it's the least damaging form of Brexit.

The risk with the WA is that we get a less optimal end-point, but this is not the fault of the WA but rather of the Brexit process and our insane government's red-lines.

I don't think the WA is objectionable in itself (except insofar as it isn't remain). But in any case it's the only WA we are going to get.

jasjas1973 · 17/12/2018 10:42

This is completely incorrect - the "problems" with the WA are that it is too specific, hence making it difficult to sell to hard leavers and to remainers

Specific? No, it is an ill thought our document, sets out what will happen in the next 2 to 4 years, we agree to fall out of some EU institutions but in many respects it is just an extension of art50, apart from we will have zero representation

After that, anything is up for grabs, inc being stuck in a CU neither side can get out of.

The Political declaration has no legal standing and as both sets of negotiators wont be around, is a waste of ink.

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 10:44

I agree that using the GE2017 results to assume support for Leave is a good idea.

I voted Labour. It was the first time I ever voted for a party I didn’t want solely to bring down the majority of this firmly blue area.

I don’t fully recall my thought process but I imagine that I had accepted that leaving would absolutely happen and I’d rather have had a Labour government in charge than a Tory one. The Lib Dem’s didn’t stand a chance of even becoming opposition.

Now we’re nearly 2 years down the line from then and the whole thing looks completely different. All “solutions” have major flaws. I’ve just seen this morning that May has said again no to a PV which leaves playing chicken with the country’s future or no deal. And she’s taking advice from Shiny McPigFucker on what to do next.

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 10:45

I disagree that using ...

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 10:47

No, it is an ill thought our document, sets out what will happen in the next 2 to 4 years, we agree to fall out of some EU institutions but in many respects it is just an extension of art50, apart from we will have zero representation

Totally disagree with this - it's a withdrawal agreement, obviously it involves falling out of EU institutions because that's what brexit involves.

Just because it is unfavourable to the UK doesn't mean that it isn't a very specific and carefully framed legal document. The transition period by the way is a concession to the UK.

Your argument appears to be that the withdrawal agreement is bad because it's not remain ... which is fair enough but you need to be honest about it.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 10:52

Although the WA is nominally posted as being a plan for the next 2+ years, is there anything to reduce that timescale?
Meaning, (don't laugh) if the UK got it's shit together and said after 6 months, we really want to leave now, can whichever PM is in the UK go to Brussels and sign on the dotted line and make it so?
I still see the WA as the way out as the UK needs to leave, for the good of the EU. Damaging the EU and any risk of Putin taking any of the Eastern EU countries or more really has to be unthinkable. It is of course gradually killing off the Ukraine by strangling it's imports and industry, so where is it going next?

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 10:53

Personally I agree that the WA on a PV that has already been voted down by Parliament is absurd.

The issue is that if you genuinely believe this, you are arguing that the only possible Brexit is a no-deal Brexit. We're not getting another WA; this is it.

It would help if politicians were to come clean that this is the only withdrawal agreement on offer. Tory leavers do seem to have accepted this, Labour is still in la-la land with the unicorns and self-renewing cake.

jasjas1973 · 17/12/2018 10:56

My objection to the WA is that it is (basically) an extension to art50 but gives us no say for up to 4 years, no agreement on fishing or various v important EU agencies, not least the security ones plus we are paying in 10billion per year!

& after all that, we are back to what?

The WA makes certain we will be talking and arguing about Brexit for the next 4 years at the very least.

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 10:56

Although the WA is nominally posted as being a plan for the next 2+ years, is there anything to reduce that timescale?
Meaning, (don't laugh) if the UK got it's shit together and said after 6 months, we really want to leave now, can whichever PM is in the UK go to Brussels and sign on the dotted line and make it so?

I think the WA agreement would be superceded in the event of a deal. I'm not clear whether you could no-deal before December 2020 if the WA were to be signed.

In practice I think the leavers are correct to believe that once in the WA, transition would end up being much longer than 2 years.

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 11:02

My objection to the WA is that it is (basically) an extension to art50 but gives us no say for up to 4 years, no agreement on fishing or various v important EU agencies, not least the security ones plus we are paying in 10billion per year!

This is just nonsense.

During the A50 period the UK is in the EU. Unless A50 is revoked, we will be outside the EU on 29/3. You can't argue that the transition is an extension to A50 because once we enter transition we have by definition left the EU.

Of course it's a worse deal. We are no longer members of the club, but we will be paying a fee for temporary use of the club facilities (ie for temporary single market access). That's Brexit ~shrugs~

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 11:04

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1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 11:06

I am agreeing with Mistigri, the name Withdrawal Agreement says it.
A legally presented plan for the UK to leave without too many of the nasty shocks that will kill people (literally), so medicines and food etc can continue as they are. I see it (in my minds eye as I have not read it)
as being pretty harsh on the UK and mostly to the EU's advantage. Maybe the UK should have come up with a better idea first?
2 or 3 years can see the end of model production of cars so the factories can just close. Finance can make it's mind up where it wants to be and so on.
The UK is not a baby, it doesn't need to be molly coddled and has shown itself over the centuries to be ruthless so the EU does not need to be 'nice'.
Stalin was content for up to 20 Million Russians to die in WW2. A significant number were non combatants who simply froze to death because the war effort took away vital supplies. Mrs May is having another go in the UK. Those who will die due to NHS failings and lack of heating for the elderly are just 'unfortunate' in the Tory eyes. I am meaning of course insufficient staff and meds rather than a NHS plan.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 11:10

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howabout · 17/12/2018 11:12

1tisllClerc I agree with your logic that the UK should leave the EU for the good of the EU. However where we disagree is that to me the WA has no hope of fostering the good long term working relationship which both the UK and the EU will need to address the threats you identify.

If the UK and the EU do not manage to negotiate a stable working relationship quickly then this will further diminish both of them in their relationship with the US.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 11:13

Rather than any PV or any other nonsense I want the members of the HoC to be given a copy of the WA each (or told to read it online) and have say 3 or 4 days to read it with no other distractions and for them then to be told to free vote with no whips relating their vote to the 'will' of their constituencies. Trusting that any of the MPs actually take note of their local citizens.
Thus the MPs can actually do the job that they are paid for, make a decision.

howabout · 17/12/2018 11:16

As even Boris Johnson admits many Leavers would vote Remain rather than WA, given the choice. However if that were to be the 2nd Ref choice then it is hardly a ringing endorsement for Remain or the Government who negotiated the WA.

Which comes back to it being political suicide for the Tories to suggest this as the Ref 2 options.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 11:18

The issue is that if you genuinely believe this, you are arguing that the only possible Brexit is a no-deal Brexit. We're not getting another WA; this is it.

Only wrt a PV. If the WA is voted down by Parliament it doesn’t make sense to put it on a PV. But Parliament would vote down a No Deal too. So why put either option on a vote and ask the population, who don’t even understand what they mean, to decide.

If Parliament votes down a WA, the only alternative Brexit is No Deal which is suicide, thus the only tenable choice is Remain.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 11:20

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TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 11:22

For me this is one of the many reasons why a PV is lunacy.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 11:23

Options that aren’t really options that people don’t know the consequences of that would not get a majority in Parliament.

howabout · 17/12/2018 11:23

Increasingly MPs are publicly saying they have sat down and read the WA in detail (trust in TM is very very low after all). This is what is leading so many of them to the conclusion that they cannot vote for it.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 11:23

Howabout
I don't see the WA as 'cast in stone' but is a working document so that life can continue.
The EU are generally happy to do some fudging so by negotiation bits can be altered AFTER March 29th. Obviously it will need good negotiators but they can focus on individual bits, or even have several threads going at once if necessary, but at least the relationship can function. It may be for example that the EU sorts out FoM, there is a need for it identified by many other countries, and it might be that the UK would actually be interested in participating in a new 'plan'.
Mrs May's words have been about a broad and deep cooperation between the UK and the EU and it is obvious that total isolation of the UK would be a true disaster, but for now the WA is the way yo get there. I can understand the argument that it appears the EU are dictating, but the UK needs to get real, ALL of life is a compromise and you do the best you can.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 11:24

You mean you don't trust the people to vote the way you want.

Well, I don't want Corbyn to ever be PM,
so if there's a Brexit GE, can we exclude Labour, please - I don't trust the voters not to choose them & hence Corbyn

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 11:26

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 11:26

I've posted before that I see the EU developing an inner ring which will continue gradual integration
and an outer core, which won't and which might merge with EFTA
The UK is well suited to this outer ring

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