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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 08:29

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Mistigri · 17/12/2018 08:40

*What we didn't have before the last election or referendum is any idea what this WA was - so if you add that to the fact that nobody in parliament would vote for it, it is pretty obvious that it is not something that should be put to the British people in a referendum.

Just because it is a compromise that keeps us away from a no deal brexit does not make it the right thing to do.*

This is not logical. The WA is compatible with any type of Brexit except no deal.

There's no parliamentary majority for no deal either.

Violetparis · 17/12/2018 08:42

I want a compromise and know many other people who do, whether it's TM's deal or something else. I don't want another reckless, divisive referendum with the risk of no deal. It's making the same mistake twice and arrogantly assuming people will vote Remain.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 08:55

Events this week:

  • Wed 19 Dec: the EU Commission publishes its No-Deal contingency plans

  • Thur 20 Dec: last day before Parliament' Christmas recess

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 08:56

Govt No Deal prepping: will this old idea be revived ?

Thatcher Govt considered recruiting psychopaths 'to keep order' after nuclear attack

(1980s files released by the National Archives)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-government-considered-recruiting-psychopaths-to-keep-order-after-nuclear-attack-9832910.html

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 08:59

Violet I'm coming round to the idea of a compromise, like the WA
especially because we can make the final deal in transition whatever we / the HoC want

We had a 52:48 Leave result in 2016
In the 2017 GE, only the LDems of the national parties was for Remain - and it gained few votes

The divisions have only become more bitter
I could accept the WA, because then neither side has been totally defeated, or can gloat that they've won and totally beaten the other side

Parker231 · 17/12/2018 09:07

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-46586673

May still rejecting the idea of a second vote.

howabout · 17/12/2018 09:16

The WA is not a compromise. It is Remain minus - hence why SNP etc won't support it and neither will anyone of a Leave disposition.

jasjas1973 · 17/12/2018 09:18

BCF The WA offers nothing but delay! both sides of HoC s will want their take, our views will never be considered and the whole divisive show will just carry-on for the next 2 to 4 years and as they cannot agree now, they are unlikely to agree at the end of transition.

WA is too vague or "nebulous" a document, especially as this government will be gone and so will the current Eu commission. as Gove said "no parliament is bound by the decisions of a previous one" is a taste of what is to come.

Parliament either by its self or being told by a PV, should start taking responsibility for its own actions in bringing us this national disaster and act now to resolve.
Options i'd like to see would (to ask for) an extension to A50 and negotiate a deal Parliament can agree on, revoke or a PV....Government needs to start Governing.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 09:21

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bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 09:24

If so many people care about our "precious union" why do they want to rip up GFA? And why aren't they lobbying for parity of civil rights across the union?

howabout · 17/12/2018 09:27

Absolutely agree nobody bloody well wants it. Grin However it could well turn out to be the path of least resistance in persuading anyone who just wants politicians to move on - if the reaction to the No Confidence vote in TM is anything to go by. Sad

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 09:30

I'll take TM WA over no deal any day.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 09:31

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DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 09:39

If so many people care about our "precious union" why do they want to rip up GFA?

Because they are thick. And ignorant. And a tad too happy to think in terms of "them" and "us".

I was going to go back and put question marks in. But then I thought ... no, because they aren't questions.

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 10:03

Just had some " let's just walk away" meme put on FB by a mum friend; someone who claims to be an intelligent thoughtful Leaver.
Stupid cow.
Which I won't say to her face or on FB because I want to keep my head down. Say it on here though.

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 10:04

WA is too vague or "nebulous" a document,

This is completely incorrect - the "problems" with the WA are that it is too specific, hence making it difficult to sell to hard leavers and to remainers.

It's the political declaration that is "nebulous", and of course that is intentional. It doesn't rule out any deliverable type of future EU-UK relationship.

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 10:10

Also, there is no evidence that the WA would tear up the union.

It does leave NI, potentially, slightly separate from the UK for some purposes, but that is already the case, as any self-respecting remainer should know, since not only does Northern Irish law already differ from UK law in some important respects, but for European trade purposes, the island of Ireland is also considered a single unit for agricultural/phytosanitary purposes (ie it's part of Ireland not Britain ... which of course reflects a physical reality).

I'm no supporter of the WA but it is disappointing to see that even here people are very confused about it.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 10:16

The WA protects the GFA with the backstop, which also also prevents No Deal - lack of agreement in transition mean we revert to the backstop

We could indeed negotiate a 3rd EEA pillar, which has nearly all our current advantages

That's why hard Brexiter hate it - they want to tear up the GFA, so the Unionists can dominate again and they want No Deal or Canada+
and they don't want anything near Remain.

Looking at the polls though, slightly more Leavers than Remainers support it, suggesting that a very soft Brexit has the potential to gain wide acceptance, even if few are very enthusiastic about it as #1 choice.

As for the "Precious Union" ? I don't give a FUCK
The vote for Brexit has killed it; let's just make sure the dissolution is gradual and peaceful

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 10:21

As for hanging on desperately to NI - demographics are pushing them ever closer to the RoI

The DUP screwed up massively supporting Leave, because Brexit has only accelerated support for reunification.

The subsidy to NI, with about 1 million Unionists, is around the net contributions to the EU for the other 65 million of us !

They are an expensive drain and a relic of colonialism

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 10:25

We had a 52:48 Leave result in 2016
In the 2017 GE, only the LDems of the national parties was for Remain - and it gained few votes

There's literally no way of knowing whether people voted for parties based on their EU stance or not I the last election. The Tories lost seats - does that mean people didn't want Brexit? Did those voters vote LD or Labour? Did former LDs vote Labour because of university fees? Did Labour gain seats because they were against austerity?

In the first GE after New Labour the LDs won a lot of seats and Labour lost - was it that people couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory so voted LD?

We don't know and I don't think it's fair to say the British public treated the GE as another Brexit vote. If you take Brexit completely out of it as if the referendum hadn't happened, I think the results works have been much the same. People won't vote LD because of the Tory coalition, don't want to vote Tory because of austerity, but are afraid to vote Labour because of Corbyn/McDonnell and the fear they'll wreck the economy and socialism/communism/antisemitism take your pick.

The GE wasn't fought on Brexit alone. Social care and U-turns and university fees, magic money trees, strong and stable government, socialist chaos and state ownership, austerity, these were the themes.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 10:29

It’s where the WA could end up they the DUP fear. If the FTA that May and Brexiters want is actually negotiated - eventually, it would leave NI only in a CU-SM backstop - hence DUP opposition.

If the choice is WA or No Deal then we need to revoke because both are shit.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 10:31

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TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 10:32

Personally I agree that the WA on a PV that has already been voted down by Parliament is absurd.

I only conceived of it being on there if a PV was announced before the Parliament WA vote as a way of avoiding it.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/12/2018 10:33

Just had some " let's just walk away" meme put on FB by a mum friend; someone who claims to be an intelligent thoughtful Leaver.
Stupid cow.
Which I won't say to her face or on FB because I want to keep my head down. Say it on here though.

My sympathies. My friend's Mum posts stuff like this daily, all about owing us for WWII, our island being so tiny etc .She's a drum banging no dealer.

I have taken to sharing counter posts but I edit the share post thingy on my FB so I share only with her, and her daughters. So:
•She posts something drum banging about no deal- I post an article or You tube thing about the reality and problems with WTO tariffs.
• She posts something about the war- I post something about the EU role in peace.
• She posts something about thinking positive - the economy 'll be ok. I post links to the govt impact assessments.

It's definitely encouraged her to research more, except when she does she posts Legatum derived nonsense.