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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 19:03

£1000 in M&S/JL vouchers or No Deal. Your choice!

Thanks all for the support for my idea. I think just £100 would do it. Remember it's not all 17 million ( and falling) that need encouraging- just the margins to ensure a majority.

Then a follow up with proper funding for the NHS, social care and schools etc.

You could tie it with 'saving the high street' and a give choice of a list of shops to spend the vouchers ( except Next and Wetherspoons).

ElenadeClermont · 16/12/2018 19:54

I am not in favour of the PV, because I never want my and my family's future to be in the hands of [my thoughts do not bear print] again. But if we have a PV, could we have Graham's video as a compulsory educational video, please?

Hazardswan · 16/12/2018 20:33

Loving the vouchers idea lonely Grin

MissMalice · 16/12/2018 20:46

If the £39bn has to be paid anyway, why aren’t people who want to stop No Deal shouting that from the roof tops??

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 20:57

@MissMalice - no Deal fanatics don't want to listen.

Sostenueto · 16/12/2018 22:06

Landrover going because the market doesn't want huge vehicles adding to pollution. Just how many farmers are there in londonGrin

Plonkysaurus · 16/12/2018 22:11

That Graham Hughes video Shock so, if we don't get a deal we'll end up at the Hague.

Compulsory viewing.

Loletta · 16/12/2018 22:12

Tony Blairr^ has hit back at Theresa Mayy^ after she accused him of “undermining” the UK in Brexitt^ talks and “insulting” the office of prime minister.
As the highly unusual war of words between the sitting prime minister and one of her predecessors intensified, Mr Blair called Ms May “irresponsible” for trying to “steamroller” her Brexit deal through parliament
Responding to her criticism of him, the former prime minister insisted it was “not irresponsible or insulting” for him to campaign for a fresh Brexit referendum and denied he had undermined her during negotiations with the EU.

So basically Tony Blair is doing what Jeremy Corbyn should be doing right now.

Mrsr8 · 16/12/2018 22:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nicoala1 · 16/12/2018 22:49

The entire EU is laughing at the incompetence of the British in all this.

UK thought they would be top dog and everyone would bow to their hubristic superiority. Ha fkn ha.

Not good times for any of us really. Disaster beckons for us methinks and I don't want that for me or my family either. Honestly what a clusterfk.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/12/2018 23:02

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Icantreachthepretzels · 16/12/2018 23:28

See - if I were TM - I wouldn't put the WA to parliament first. I'd put it straight to the people. She has said 'this brexit or no brexit' - so that's what she should ask us. Then - if the people vote for her WA then parliament will have to pass it and she has won a victory.
If they vote remain/ revoke ... I'd say she'd probably resign, but knowing her she wouldn't. She carries on with a much easier job.

Don't know if she can legally bypass the vote on the WA and put it straight to us, though - so that idea may just be stuff and nonsense (though when has something being illegal ever stopped her?) I think the mps would have to vote to agree to put it on the ballot paper - but I don't know if they have to be given first crack at a vote on it. I imagine someone on here knows...

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 00:50

Mrs8, some of the car stuff is Brexit but some of it is changing market too.

A friend talked to me about Ellesmere Port and what Brexit would do to the vauxhall plant there. Their opinion was it was fucked either way because the plant needed modernisation and wasn't first choice for a new model. There's been strikes there recently over it. Brexit just brought the inevitable forward slightly as there was even less incentive to keep the plant going as long as possible.

The same isn't true of every car plant in the UK. Some would have had good prospects.

My understanding is jaguar Land rover has been particularly hard hit because people are moving away from diesel and the company hasn't managed to adapt to the change with its products, so again not a huge surprise but yes, it's probably brought the inevitable forward.

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 01:46

Back on home soil. Just.

Two important tweets before bed.

The first is like understanding the principle backstop = the GFA and how Brexiteers have nfi what they are talking about. This one debunks their latest horseshit 'managed no deal' (FWIW I view 'accidental no deal' differently to 'deliberate no deal' in terms of political chaos and potentially no leadership in the crisis that follows, to deliberate no deal where there is no power vacuum and we aren't all suffering from headless chicken syndrome)

Dmitry Grozoubinski @ DmitryOpines
Anyone using the term "managed No-Deal" should explain what an "unmanaged" one would be. Giving the UK civil service 2019 off?

As far as I can tell, "managed" is just a poll tested way of hoping public servants can fix it, and blaming them for what they can't.

The second is a government legal position on A50 revocation. This is being persued in the courts by Jolyon Maugham to see if this is correct (remember the government position was wrong in the original A50 Miller case).

Brigid Fowler @ brigid_fowler
Solicitor General Robert Buckland tells @BBCWestminHour #WestminsterHour that A50 revocation would involve Act of Parliament (on Miller case parallel) & repeal of EU(W)A) but A50 extension could be done domestically by changing 'exit day' in EU(W)A

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Mistigri · 17/12/2018 05:40

*I think that the WA cannot be part of a further referendum if as expected it would be voted down by as many as 100 conservatives, so there can be no mandate for it.

If there is to be another ref - there needs to be a mandate for either of the choices (or any if more than 2).*

Put that way there is no point in a referendum as there is no HoC mandate for any type of Brexit.

Mistigri · 17/12/2018 05:49

Mrs8, some of the car stuff is Brexit but some of it is changing market too.

It's not so easy to separate the two. A changing market (as opposed to a declining one) benefits someone, because If the market changes, you have to invest in new products. Brexit changes the risks associated with investing in the UK and makes it less likely that it will be the recipient of that new investment.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/12/2018 06:09

Put that way there is no point in a referendum as there is no HoC mandate for any type of Brexit.

There’s no logical mandate at all. This is a bit tongue in cheek but I’m trying thinking of curved ball approaches..

[Warning - this may be as silly as my voucher suggestion.]

Liam Fox yesterday trotted out the silly Leave argument against a PV -what do you do then, hold a third?

Although this seems a bit crazy or tongue in cheek he was so irritating it made me think. Yes, actually, as we have unfortunately started the bloody referendum ball rolling there’s a logical argument for a 2a and 2b final stages of the process.

2016- advisory. Do we pursue the idea of ditching membership.

2018- Stage2a -confirmatory. We have now established that on any scenario the economy will take a massive hit and the border peril is clearer. Do we still want to pursue this? [If so, which outline ‘plan’ do you prefer TMs (or crazy no deal?)]

2020? - Stage2b -final. We have now a final detailed plan. Are we happy with this?

Although this seems unbearable I think if there was a knowledge in advance that there was a possible two stage process yet to come it would act as a filter. It would reinforce mid ground voters into thinking I really can’t bear this -let’s just try to stick with the status quo.

It would probably reduce turn out too, but I think only with a certain demographic.

Obviously if stage 2a said no let’s not pursue it , 2b then wouldn’t happen.

Despite attending the marches to support a PV it scares me. But how else can the deadlock be broken

lonelyplanetmum · 17/12/2018 07:40

Another sign that the self harm is well on track. I do think the hubris stage is declining and nemesis is underway..

I am sure some of the people will be celebrating.

"London is no longer the world’s leading financial centre after losing ground to Wall Street following the Brexit vote.
The City has fallen eight points in the rankings, ceding the top rank to New York. Asian competitors are also closing in, with Hong Kong only three points behind London according to the Z/Yen Global Financial Centres Index."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/london-loses-its-status-as-worlds-top-financial-centre-66pz7g0h6?fbclid=IwAR1mDc6hhhSF7LdYA2KEGyZPDvkYbUUKeoFZ8WWMaaa_MUd6lNRaGpNRO80

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 07:44

Mistrigri I agree to a point. But Ellesmere was potted even if we remained. That's the sad true for the area.

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Sostenueto · 17/12/2018 07:46

There is a solution. A call for a National Government as there is in time of war. The negotiations for brexit should have always been by a cross party committee from the very beginning. It is too big for just one party to deal with. Perhaps if that had happened where party politics were put to one side for the sake of the national interest we would have got a better deal, been stronger in negotiations and reached a calm, ordered and fair exit for all. Perhaps the PV should be on that National Government or not to see us through this?

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 08:03

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
Times

^Government sources say it’s bodies not cash that’s needed for no deal planning

£1bn of £1.5bn for deal and no deal planning this financial year not yet spent^

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/80282bf2-0189-11e9-83a9-aa6bb81799a5
Brexit: We need cash to prepare for no-deal, Javid to tell cabinet

Two things going on here

  1. Sajid Javid is coming out for no deal (just like Hunt who I see as his most similar rival candidate who he will be competing for the same MP votes from)
  2. the interesting comment about not having spent money allocated for no deal. This isn't even about a lack of bodies: the money hasn't been spent because it takes time to recruit and get up to speed. If they haven't already recruited those people it's now too late. The vast majority you'd want will currently already be employed and have to give notice to their current employer (after they'd completed the interview process which I'm guessing at best to read applications, and then do interviews is three weeks). So we are looking at a 7 week lead time, plus 2 weeks for Christmas when not much is going to happen. 7 weeks after Christmas is mid Feb to start the job. I find the idea than you could hit the ground running and organise much at all in the 5 or 6 week before 29th March a fantasy.

At best you'd be looking to divert from other areas of government that already exist. But austerity means there is no slack in the system to realistically make that much of a viable alternative too.

Literally the only ones at this stage who could do very much at all are arguably the military.

The fact that anyone in the Cabinet is proposing more money / bodies for a no deal Brexit should worry you. They are either making a huge stage show for the media / consumption of their own party in which case they aren't to be trusted OR they have frankly lost their minds OR they have absolutely no idea of what is required to run a country. Or possibly its just all three anyway.

Either way this story is big and scary and the reason they have not spent the money allocated is because no deal hasn't been taken seriously and they now are in a position where its impossible to spend the money in time.

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 08:06

Sorry I correct the above:

Sam Coates Times@samcoatestimes
Times

Sajid Javid wants to make “no deal” the central planning assumption for government - but will fight against no deal happening

Jeremy Hunt does NOT want to make “no deal” the central planning assumption but seems more comfortable with no deal

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 08:08

Sam Gymiah mp @ samgymiah
Downing St has stopped selling the PMs flawed deal. Instead we have displacement activity designed to distract from last weeks failed renegotiation. And a concerted attempt to discredit every plausible alternative as they run down the clock. This is not in the national interest.

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
This is serious for PM - someone who was one of her ministers until last month, who backed her in 2016 saying she is not acting in national interest

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
Tell us what you really think, Sam ...

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howabout · 17/12/2018 08:09

If the £39bn has to be paid anyway, why aren’t people who want to stop No Deal shouting that from the roof tops??

If there is No Deal then there is no requirement to pay £39 bn. That is roughly the cost of either continuing to Remain or paying for 2 years pseudo membership during transition.

If I were running the No Deal / anti WA campaign I would be questioning how much more than £39 bn the bill will be for never ending transition and the size of the annual payments for continuing trade relationship (if it ever gets negotiated) - Norway pays in a lot.

Just for clarity, I actually think the £39 bn + is a red herring and voters care more about control of the spending as opposed to the amounts involved.

IrenetheQuaint · 17/12/2018 08:16

"At best you'd be looking to divert from other areas of government that already exist. But austerity means there is no slack in the system to realistically make that much of a viable alternative too."

Activity in many other areas has practically ground to a halt thanks to Brexit, so there are still a lot of civil servants in Whitehall (less so in the non-London operational offices) who could be swiftly repurposed to do no-deal planning. But choosing decent people and getting them quickly up to speed on a totally novel and complicated piece of work is really hard. There is a very high risk of headless chicken syndrome.

Getting more external entrants to the civil service within the timeframe is now basically impossible due to the need for a notice period and security clearance. But there are quite a few who have been recruited in the last year to BEIS and Defra who are now doing no-deal work.