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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
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lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 15:47

I am looking forward to reading the 400 page document that JRM and the ERG are releasing before Christmas that sets out the alternative plan to the WA and explains how the UK is going to really prosper outside the EU and solve the little side issues like the NI border.

But they produced one before.It had more holes in it than a Swiss cheese with woodworm.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 15:52

On the basis that Mrs May has greater support than most of not all others at present, if she had an 'epiphany' moment and used her single minded (fill your own words in here) to go for UK unity and actually start handing out some goodies now she might have a chance.
Unless she is planning to declare war on somewhere (always a good diversion) there is going to have to be some massive climb downs from the totally bizarre situation the UK is in. Even a 'no deal' crash out needs organising unless she has an onward flight booked from Brussels to Switzerland for the morning of 30 March and do a 'Reggie Perrin'.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2018 15:55

Given the timescales being discussed here - around the 24 week mark - for a referendum (bearing in mind we might take another few weeks to decide to have one) then it's probably going to be no earlier than June 2019 before it's held - possibly later.

I think given that's 3 years/36 months/1000+ days after the first referendum, any suggestion of excluding remain as an option is only valid if in 2022 we can exclude Labour from the ballot slips. After all they didn't win in 2017 - why should they get another chance.

why should a 48% of the population be bounced into a decision which isn't really a decision but a coronation ?

I once got strongarmed (I should have insisted on refusing) into an employee forum which was constituted to address some morale and productivity issues. Employees were encouraged to come up with suggestions, and the forum would put them to management.

#1 suggestion (by about 70%) was "flexible working" (trumping even "more pay").

Just before we convened the meeting, the management team said the one issue they wouldn't be able to grant was .... flexible working.

When it was bought up for discussion one of the directors said ...

Well, flexible working sounds nice, but it will end up with management having to keep an eye on employee productivity, and behaviour

Because (as some here might suspect) I can be a bigmouth, I just innocently asked whether that wasn't supposed to be their job anyway ????

In the end, we were allowed to amend the dress code to "smart casual". When the guidance went around, a close inspection showed they had merely rewritten the original dress code from the employee manual with no concessions at all.

I left before they went bust Grin

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 15:56

Lonely, I presume you realise I was 'extracting the Michael'? Of course they couldn't get beyond half a sheet of A4 written in crayon without hitting massive legal issues. While the 3 blokes in pub video has 8 issues discussed, there might be the odd small workaround or loophole as yet unseen but to demolish all 8 is beyond improbable.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 15:59

I thought you might be 1tis but I just didn't want their greatly trumpeted launched plan to be completely forgotten (given it was dead within less than 6 hours anyway)!

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 16:01

given that's 3 years/36 months/1000+days

Hamsters (sadly) only live 1,000 days approx. If only a referendum had a similar longevity.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/12/2018 16:01

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Icantreachthepretzels · 16/12/2018 16:14

Wouldn't a remain/ no deal referendum just really confuse all those fucking idiots people who think 'no deal' just means everything stays the same?
Poor lambs.
Will nobody think of the idiots?

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 16:20

There is no chance of setting any minimum for Leave.
That really would be an obvious "stitchup" and be politically impossible

It would have to be a straight contest and the risk of No Deal is too high
It should ideally be Remain vs WA, or if MPs insists on a No Deal option, then an STV Remain vs WA vs No Deal

The WA is noone's favourite option, but it is much more acceptable to the public than to MPs

Mother You seem to want to include No Deal in order to frighten people into voting Remain

That is too high a risk of going wrong

  • we'd have an ERG-led Leave campaign going full blast and all the Tory media pushing No Deal, plus the billionaire disaster capitalists and Putin

Most Leavers, including on here, still just talk about Project Fear, so they'd be ripe for that again.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 16:23

The politicians are playing chicken with each other, risking the country being run over by the No Deal train.
We shouldn't join in

borntobequiet · 16/12/2018 16:34

I like lonely’s voucher idea but I would make it M&S vouchers. Or a choice? People like to express a preference.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 16:37

Of course the 'no deal' paperwork will be at least as long and detailed as the WA is, as it is largely addressing the same range of treaties and deals. While legally all the treaties stop there will be something although I suppose it is probably covered in the nebulous 'technical documents' that appear in my inbox like confetti.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 17:09

_ DAN HODGES: The Sword of Damocles hung over May... then Rees-Mogg stuck it in his own foot_

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6500399/The-Sword-Damocles-hung-Rees-Mogg-stuck-foot.html

The plotters leaving the ‘Kill-Zone’ 🤔
– the nickname for the campaign headquarters that had been established in Iain Duncan Smith’s plush office on Parliament’s Upper Committee corridor –
were to depart at two-minute intervals to avoid attracting suspicion.
....
Meticulously prepared and shambolically executed. 😂
That’s how historians will record the 2018 Christmas Coup.
‘The whole thing’s been a catastrophe,’
....
There is now no mechanism for forcing the Prime Minister’s departure.

The EU has made it clear that even if there was,
they would not entertain the idea of renegotiating the deal.

And even if they were minded to renegotiate, the last people in Europe they would hand meaningful concessions too are the Tory Eurosceptics.
....
Aware of the opposition to No Deal that exists in parliament,**
some Brexiteers have been discussing the use of the Civil Contingencies Act to bulldoze a path past the Commons.
.....
This is where we are thanks to this week’s efforts from Jacob Rees-Mogg’s child-soldiers:

With a wounded PM being openly mocked and taunted by Europe’s lounge-lizard Jean-Claude Juncker.

With a second referendum threatening the fracture of the Conservative Party and the country.

And with British MPs contemplating the use of wartime plenipotentiary powers to force a No Deal Brexit on to the British people.

Theresa May might have been the target.
But now the entire country is trapped in the ERG’s Kill-Zone.

HesterThrale · 16/12/2018 17:10

I too like the voucher idea! You could actually give all voters £1000 in vouchers before you spend £39 billion.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2018 17:25

Interesting ...

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
DGRossetti · 16/12/2018 17:26

You could actually give all voters £1000 in vouchers before you spend £39 billion.

Like "quantitative easing" ... it would have been cheaper - and done the economy a lot more good - if every citizen were given £10,000 each.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 17:29

I have a feeling the £39 billion, or around £19 Billion of it is due to be paid whatever. 19 if the UK exits on 29 March and the remainder to end of 2020.

borntobequiet · 16/12/2018 17:38

£1000 in M&S/JL vouchers or No Deal.
Your choice!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 17:39

Yes, the exit bill is money owed, plus money for the next 2 years transition.
It isn't saved if we Remain

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 17:40

The GFA was agreed 20 years ago all shiny and hopeful - but fragile:

The Irish Border@BorderIrish

  • You ok, Jean?
  • Oh Border. I was putting up the 🎄and there’s this lovely bauble I’ve had for twenty years
- it’s all shiny and hopeful and starry - and it fell, Border, it just fell, just carelessness, Border, and it smashed. A fragile beautiful thing, broken, Border, broken. ....... You don’t have to have lived on the border, or in Northern Ireland, or Ireland, or to be (Northern) Irish, to understand the instability & fear the sense of betrayal at the unravelling of a previously given guarantee, which Brexit brings to NI.

It’s a choice not to understand it

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 17:52

Thanks BCF, that's another lie that JRM, Peter Bone and others are STILL saying. When are these liars going to be taken to task?
Surely it is Mrs May#'s interest get them to STFU with the lies or can you (anyone) see a reason for to be allowed to continue.?

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 17:56

The story in the Irish Times I referred to on this thread or another this morning highlights in a very down to earth way why the GFA must not be interfered with. It's not the grandstanding of politicians who declare it one way or another, it's people having the shit kicked out of them because they go into the 'wrong' pub or worse.

Parker231 · 16/12/2018 18:10

Sky News is discussing whether there is any risk to holidays post 29 March and whether the government have made contingency plans to support the travel industry - which they are denying.

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 18:45

amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/16/jaguar-land-rover-to-axe-up-to-5000-jobs?CMP=twt_gu&__twitter_impression=true
Jaguar Land Rover to 'axe up to 5,000 jobs'
Analysts say carmaker will outline job cuts in new year as part of drive to combat Brexit and falling sales

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Mrsr8 · 16/12/2018 18:52

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