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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Mrsr8 · 16/12/2018 12:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 12:16

BigChocFrenzy I agree totally.

The extremes are using Brexit as an excuse to force violent social change.

Left and right will manipulate the situation. We are living in very dangerous times.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 12:19

Yet another example of the extreme NI Unionism and fascist / Nazi connections - this time a longrunning gang of Chelsea thugs

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/dec/15/chelsea-fans-flag-ss-deaths-head-budapest

The banner, a modified flag of Northern Ireland that also mentioned Rangers and bore the Loyalist slogan “No surrender”,
featured the SS-Totenkopf skull commonly used by neo-Nazis as a reference to the Third Reich’s units who ran extermination camps throughout Europe and the 3rd SS Panzer division.

HesterThrale · 16/12/2018 12:19

A PV is fraught with risk, but even just the clamour for it is putting pressure on the government to begin to think opinion has changed.

There is another vote coming up though. If we are still for some reason in the EU for the May 23rd elections, (which seems possible if there’s an extension) it would be nice to think that the 20 or so UKIP MEPs would receive a message from voters about whether they’re still wanted. As a precursor to bringing this whole sorry mess to a close. (Well, you can dream...!)

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 12:20

The backstop is much worse than Remain, so a new govt can always take us back, hopefully via the Fast Track procedure

Or the new government will start on a Canada style FTA that won’t result in frictionless trade.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 12:20

Also why is disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox now all over the press? For most of the last 2 years he's been quite low under the radar compared to Johnson,Gove,Davis etc?

Parker231 · 16/12/2018 12:30

David Davis is again telling May to stand up to Europe. Does he not realise that Europe have no need to change their position - they are not leaving and are never going to give a leaver a better position than those who are remaining. The UK is looking pathetic in the European press this weekend.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 12:42

I posted before the 2016 ref that the far left and far right both want chaos, so they can carry out policies that the British public would never otherwise accept

I agree with you there. I didn’t vote Labour at the last election because I think Corbyn + McD are lunatics.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 12:54

None of this is getting anywhere near addressing the need for the UK not be just ambivalent to Europe but be a full on Europe supporter and put their efforts into sorting out the other stuff that Europe is dealing with.
The chart that lonelplanetmum (?) put up showing that only 6% were particularly interested in Europe needs to be radically improved to make it a success. Combined with a lot of negativity thrown around by MPs, the government and the press, this is a big ask.
While it is great to think this would happen, I need a bit of convincing.
The UK has screwed the EU over with all the nonsense so although the warm words are great and encouraging translating this into real positivity by say 60% or greater of the UK, at a time when with only 3 months to go and many are still spouting factually incorrect leave slogans is monumental.
It would be great if TM bounced into the office tomorrow morning, sacked all the naysayers and dragged in cross party MPs who want fervently to remain and make a go of being back on the top table at the EU and tasked another bunch to DO what is necessary to resolve some of the UK problems. It doesn't need any new focus groups or that shit, they already KNOW what is wrong, but some have been actively ignoring it.
I know this idea has more holes than a sieve but FFS we KNOW what doesn't work about the UK.

howabout · 16/12/2018 13:06

Bigchoc the GFA is a bilateral Treaty between UK and Ireland.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 13:39

howabout I know, but I expect Ireland to use its leverage with the EU - and its veto over any future trade deal - if the UK plans to Brexit and requests renegotiation
and for that matter to use the Irish Lobby in the USA and other countries to add pressure

The USA applied great pressure on the UK govt at critical points to get the GFA and during much of the Troubles to rule out actions the UK wanted to take.
UK business lost out in some cases, or if they dealt with NI, were restricted
e.g. when a UK multinational bought iirc Smith & Wesson, the US Congress banned them from selling weapons for the RUC.

No point relying on Trump's "special relationship":
He attended at least one IRA-SInn Fein fundraiser in New York with Gerry Adams, while the IRA was bombing London.

Even if the UK revokes and stays for years, there is no mechanism to force renegotiation.
The UK lost a lot of influence in the EU and worldwide with this Brexit debacle - and Ireland gained a lot within the EU

Ireland had a referendum with 92% support for the GFA - and for changing its constitution to remove its claim to NI.

They would require major incentives to renegotiate - maybe an agreement that the UK cannot Brexit again, until NI votes in a poll for reunification.
That would suit Brexiters and Ireland

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 13:48

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Lord Patten calls ERG Tory MPs “Maosists” and “rodents in the basement” nibbling at the UK-EU relationship for decades. Conservatives’ Xmas truce going well then.
#TWTW

This is being referred to as controversial, yet Rees-Mogg himself compared leavers to the Chinese communist party.

So how can it be controversial?

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1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 13:55

I am looking forward to reading the 400 page document that JRM and the ERG are releasing before Christmas that sets out the alternative plan to the WA and explains how the UK is going to really prosper outside the EU and solve the little side issues like the NI border.
I will give it a read through after breakfast on Christmas morning.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 13:57

Failed by both its major parties, betrayed Britain lurches towards the abyss

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/16/failed-by-both-major-parties-betrayed-britain-lurches-towards-the-abyss

It is one of the unique characteristics of the Brexit crisiss* that it makes winners of none and losers of all.

The past seven days have demonstrated that this is a wind so ill that it blows no one any good.

The most deserved losers are the Brexit ultras.
They finally launched their leadership coup and failed miserably.

Without a plausible plan or a credible leader, these are the men who put the ass into assassin.

After all their prating about “taking back control”, they couldn’t even organise the removal of a mortally wounded prime minister.
The Brexit fanatics have always been a minority of a minority and now no one can be in any doubt about that.

And this same gang claim they could negotiate a superior agreement with the EU or handle a no-deal Brexit in 100 days that are left? 🤦🏻‍♀️

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 14:01

In the midst of the worst period for the Conservative party since the ERM crisis, the poll tax, Suez, the Corn Laws or another precedent of your choice,
Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour has become less popular and the leader’s personal ratings are even more negative than those of the prime minister.

Labour is getting a similar warning from the private polling that the party commissions.

However lustily they may demand a general election when in front of a live microphone,
some members of the shadow cabinet are muttering privately that they are not at all eager to go to the country
for fear that their party will get a verdict from the voters that it will not like.

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 14:01

@1tisILeClerc , if we run out of toilet paper, 400 page nonsense might come in handy Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 14:15

Oh dear, Fox has a cunning plan to help May - and his cunning plans to date have rivalled Baldrick's:

Tom Newton Dunnn@tnewtondunn*

Why do Brexiteers like Fox also now want to roll the Commons dice?

They estimate that too few Tory MPs/ministers would yet dare put their name to a 2nd ref or EEA publicly,
hence it could shoot their foxes (pardon the pun) and narrow options back to PM’s deal.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 14:19

Another cunning Leave Plan ....
Petition: Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019. 🤯

Ian Dunt@IanDunt

Hilarious. "Leaving the EU in March 2019 will allow the UK good time to negotiate more efficiently."🤦🏻‍♀️

Imagine being so ill-informed that you'd put your name to that.
....
'We'll have plenty of time for efficient negotiation if we could just detonate our trading network.'

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 14:31

patsturgis@patricksturg

For the first time, bookies now offering odds on for a 2nd referendum

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
EtVoilaBrexit · 16/12/2018 15:00

Lord Patten calls ERG Tory MPs “Maosists” and “rodents in the basement” nibbling at the UK-EU relationship for decades.

The problem here is the lack of transparency and in effect the lack of democracy in the british system.

If the work fo some conservatives against the EU had been made clear to everyone, then maybe, there would have been a scope for people to oppose it. For the position to be discussed etc etc.
Instead we have a lot of things happening behind doors, invisible to most bar a select few at the top of the Tory party.

So now we have all this flurry of opposition and battles that are no more than what has been happening before getting visible.

At least we can answer that.
At least the Conservative party now has a choice as to how it deals with the right wing extremists within it.
At least when people will vite again, they will know WHAT they are voting for (And it might well nit be the official Conservative line)

EtVoilaBrexit · 16/12/2018 15:07

I agree with 1Leclerc about Remaining in the EU.

As an option, it will aleniate half of the population. People who already though the government wasn’t listening to them,
Its a recipe for disaster.
And that even before starting to wonder if the country as a whole actullay WANT to be part of the EU (the 70% mark is a good one on that and we are nowhere near that).

Saying that we should just ‘Remain’ wo a plan no how to look after one half of the population who voted leave is justbas crazy and away with the fairies than leaving the EU with No Deal wo a plan.

At least with the WA there is the opportunity to have some sort of plan.
It doesn’t satisfy anyone but it gives the opportunity to work on finding a solution to it. Time to educate people. Time to shift the focus (maybe away from immigration?) and onto planning a future for the WHOLE country rather than a select few (aka also for the ‘North’ of the country and Scotland. Also for the poorest in the society. Also for the young and disfrenchised. Also for the JAM etc....)

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 15:26

{As an option, it will alienate half of the population. People who already though the government wasn’t listening to them,
Its a recipe for disaster.}
Principally the half that prefer to look at baubles rather than why the baubles stay hanging on the tree (bit of a Christmas theme!).
There are too many voices in Government and opposition still shouting project fear. If Mrs May wasn't isolated and as a 'team' worked on a realiseable plan to win support of the disadvantaged area's voters, you know the stuff, employment, infrastructure improvements etc and actually started implementing it (it will be necessary anyway so why the delay?). But no, the only real aim is to make it to 29 March alive and in government. Companies are exhorted to have at least 5 year plans, if not 10 and 15 years, where are the government's plans?

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 15:33

While the 'leavers' will be very angry if the UK does not leave, they will at least be fed and everyone's lives won't fall apart immediately.
This leads me to think WA and a manged departure is the way as until those like the ERG are completely neutralised (basically after they have passed on) they will be a continuing thorn in the side at a time when the EU needs unity. Regardless of Brexit, the world has got more turbulent over the last say 10 years.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 15:40

If Mrs May wasn't isolated and as a 'team' worked on a realiseable plan to win support of the disadvantaged area's voters, you know the stuff, employment, infrastructure improvements etc and actually started implementing it (it will be necessary anyway so why the delay?).

To be honest I think that so many people are sick of it. I think enough of the balance of voters would acquiesce if the govt with some other party backing gave everyone a John Lewis £100 voucher and said sorry but we've tried. Any plan will leave us all worse off, the time isn't right to leave now.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 15:41

Obviously then going on to address the real problems.

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