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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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MissMalice · 16/12/2018 09:51

There is no convincing Leavers though is there?

The Leave campaign told voters to ignore experts and has whipped up the narrative of betrayal.

Even if politicians took an adult position and clearly explained the risks of no deal and even if the media clearly reported it - there’s still social media which is a seemingly unstoppable force.

howabout · 16/12/2018 09:55

I don't think the WA can be a 2nd Referendum option if it is defeated in Parliament by 100+ votes. That then only leaves No Deal vs Remain. The EU and UK Government have taken over 2 years to demonstrate that a compromise negotiation is not in fact possible.

(BTW many contend that the WA is in breach of the GFA because of the Backstop. However given the main signatories to the GFA are the UK and Ireland and it was signed reflecting the reality of the time that both parties are in the EU, in International Law terms, the logical legal step is for the UK / Ireland to negotiate bi-laterally to reflect the fact that the UK has voted to Leave the EU. The EU would then be bound to respect this in its negotiating position. The whole process has been backside foremost, legally speaking Grin, from the start - hence the mess)

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 09:57

Leavers can watch this and if they are still determined to support No Deal then fuck 'em.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 09:57

{Even if politicians took an adult position and clearly explained the risks of no deal and even if the media clearly reported it }
I am not convinced the HoC have done anything like enough work.
The killing of Jo Cox was terrible, obviously, but the failure of other politicians to make a connection between crashing out and the strong likelihood of unnecessary deaths, by medicines not arriving, A+E being choked and understaffed and a host of relatively minor but still deadly incidents is worrying.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2018 10:32

You can't exclude options in a ballot, just because you don't like that outcome.

Even if that outcome is unlawful ?

Maybe a better way of asking is has a referendum result requiring a government to break an international agreement (a) ever happened in the world, and (b) been won ? ?

Thegirlinthefireplace · 16/12/2018 10:34

You can exclude an option because it will destroy the country though. It would be grossly incompetent of MPs to offer people the option (not that it being grossly incompetent will stop them!)

MissMalice · 16/12/2018 10:41

And that highlights the ridiculousness of the governments position. They’ve spent the last two years claiming “no deal is better than a bad deal”. How on earth do they explain that no deal isn’t actually a viable option?

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 10:41

Having just watched Graham's video, linked above. Please Please Please can the HoC set up the video and get some popcorn in and spent 30 minutes watching it and then in a Question and answer session get anyone to say why any of Graham's comments are untrue and from that work out how the UK will benefit from leaving.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 10:41

For some light relief: some European (humorous) perspectives:

German:

twitter.com/graef_j/status/1073710544522223617

twitter.com/matthias_feist/status/1073694818562396160

Dutch:

news.sky.com/video/dutch-mp-makes-love-actually-appeal-to-uk-over-brexit-11581592

(This one made me well up a little bit Blush)

Violetparis · 16/12/2018 10:51

Not watching the Marr Show but seen some tweets saying Chuka Umunna is on suggesting only Remain or No Deal on a ballot. I can't get behind a PV with this choice, it's far too risky, I'd rather go with Theresa May's deal with all it's flaws.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 10:59

Not watching the Marr Show but seen some tweets saying Chuka Umunna is on suggesting only Remain or No Deal on a ballot. I can't get behind a PV with this choice, it's far too risky, I'd rather go with Theresa May's deal with all it's flaws.

I strongly suspect that is the point of the Times article today. It’s a placed article from May’s team to frighten everyone into supporting her deal through. I think it unlikely Liddington is actually plotting against May.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 10:59

What Umunna is I’ve no idea.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 11:03

But now everyone is going to start obsessing over PV ballot - the questions, the marking system - do you have a second choice on 3 options? And No Deal as an option - will we have to have a court case to determine whether it’s legal to put it on there?

All the time the clock is ticking, and what we really need to do is revoke art 50.

Violetparis · 16/12/2018 11:06

Tatiana it's working ! I am frightened of the prospect of a PV with no deal chaos as an option, I think it would win. The whole narrative that would come about in a second referendum would be less about the EU and more about the betrayal of Leave voters, even as a Remain voter I can understand this from their point of view.

MerdedeBrexit · 16/12/2018 11:17

As I may have mentioned here before, the Swiss know how to hold a proper referendum and there is even a box for "Don't Know", if you still can't decide after having read the pros and cons and projected outcomes explained by the various political parties and the government in the documentation accompanying your polling card, which arrives well before the day of the vote. If only Cameron had taken note, this mess wouldn't have happened.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 11:23

The whole narrative that would come about in a second referendum would be less about the EU and more about the betrayal of Leave voters, even as a Remain voter I can understand this from their point of view.

I think that’s a good point. There’s no question the Leave campaign will contain just as much garbage as the last one, and that would be an emotive line. They’re very good at feelz.

We have a grasp now of what went wrong with the last one, but we haven’t got to the bottom of the more nefarious things, nor had time to consider, let alone put in place, the kind of controls that Ireland, and other countries have for their referendums. So why the hell would we want to repeat the mistake.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 11:24

Unfortunately all the PV and other bollocks is just diversionary tactics to prevent people from realising that there are only 3 options and someone has to decide damn soon which one is going to be followed.
Politically as the referendum in 2016 voted for leave it should be considered but saying that the TRUTH about how much it would really cost should be widely publicised. I have just emailed my MP and asked her to spend 30 minutes and watch the video linked a little earlier (3 men in pub) and challenged her to find any evidence that the UK would be better off by leaving. She is Labour and had said she would be voting the WA down.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 11:24

If only Cameron had taken note, this mess wouldn't have happened.

The HoC and Lords are responsible for that too.

But the Swiss have their own problems with the consequences of their referendums.

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 11:31

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Liam Fox comes out in favour of an indicative vote in the Commons for a Brexit way forward. First Brexiteer to do so, pretty significant moment #Marr

Why do Brexiteers like Fox also now want to roll the Commons dice? They estimate that too few Tory MPs/ministers would yet dare put their name to a 2nd ref or EEA publicly, hence it could shoot their foxes (pardon the pun) and narrow options back to PM’s deal.

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TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 11:37

Interesting article by Nick Cohen today:

The few decent people left at the top of Labour understand the consequences. One explained that, whatever other qualities Corbyn possesses, he is not overburdened by the weight of his intellect. The brains behind the operation are John McDonnell, Milne and Murray. And “they absolutely believe that if Brexit brings chaos the voters will turn to the radical left”. To put it in Marxist language, a crisis in capitalism will allow the left intelligentsia to lead the proletariat to victory.

Why are Labour’s leaders so quiet on Europe

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 11:42

howabout ^Of course Ireland would avoid any bilateral negotiations with the UK

  • the country that has oppressed them for most of the last 800 years.

Brexiters want bilateral negotiations so they can bully Ireland.
They are currently very frustrated that the EU is supporting Ireland,^ which scuppered their plans
It is the first time in 800 years that the UK / England cannot bully Ireland into submission

I expect Ireland will tell the EU to keep the GFA and the border as one of the preconditions for any trade deal later
They would be daft to give up their leverage & support

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 11:51

The only way to negotiate Brexit - or future trade deals - without being hamstrung into SM+CU by the NI border,
is to wait until a border poll delivers reunification,
i.e. probably many years hence.

However, it would probably take that long for Brexiters (mostly !) to agree what they want, learn about how Britain works as a modern industrialised country & finance centre

  • financial passporting, international trade, JIT, travel, essential agencies, food etc - and to make their impact assessments & plans

and only THEN put it to the country in a referendum or GE.

SusanWalker · 16/12/2018 12:01

If by some kind of miracle we do remain then the departments of exiting the EU and international trade will be scrapped and should then be replaced by a department for regional investment and infrastructure, who's job is to make sure that investment is spread evenly throughout the country and to ensure that the infrastructure is good enough to enable that investment.

And by that I don't mean just looking at the North/South divide, but actually the southeast/rest of the country divide and cities/rural areas/seaside towns divide.

They can have the £39 billion as a starting budget. But not with Liam Fox in charge.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 12:01

I posted before the 2016 ref that the far left and far right both want chaos,
so they can carry out policies that the British public would never otherwise accept

Add that we also have the disaster capitalists from around the world) who are eagerly financing the useful idiots and using highly sophisticated psyops tech developed for the military
plus some stirring by Putin

The Brexit they want would be a nightmare for most ordinary Leavers, just as much as for Remainers.
Howver, I expect that in the event of No Deal, our divided country would blame different people though.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 12:08

If we get to late February, then I definitely want the HoC just to pass the damn WA

No, it isn't what we want, but it stops No Deal - including if the negotiations in transition fail, because of the backstop.
The backstop is much worse than Remain, so a new govt can always take us back, hopefully via the Fast Track procedure.

While Corbyn's cabal control Labour, I can't seriously believe in a cross-party coalition coming together that has the required 316 votes to pass a motion or amendment to Revoke, or to ask for SM+CU / 3rd EEA pillar.
Even if that miracle happened, it still wouldn't be legally binding on the PM.

If the HoC refuse the WA, then our only hope is that May puts country before party & revokes
On an optimistic day, I give it a 50% chance
On most days, I give it 20%

It is a HUGE gamble, with the economy and with future living standards of ordinary people in the UK
(those of us who are expats should be fine - I've much more faith in the EU looking after us than our own govt)