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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 07:48

I expect the EU would still extend for a PV with the WA v No Deal,
but they'd be very nervous

  • as would everyone here be !
BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 07:54

NY Times -Brexit: The Most Boring Important Story in the World

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/opinion/sunday/theresa-may-brexit.amp.html?twitterr_impression=true

I’ve recently been struck by how much following British politics reminds me of watching “Lost,” the long-running TV series from the early 2000s.
The show was about a group of plane-crash survivors
.....
The tone was one of desperate urgency, and every episode ended on a cliffhanger.
There were about 400 important characters. If you missed a week, it was almost impossible to catch up, but somehow nothing really changed throughout the show’s 121 episodes.

Each involved the same group of people abandoned on an island, trying to think their way out of the mistake their pilot had made in Episode 1.

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 08:00

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
A note on semantics. “Wanting” something is not the same as telling people that it’s likely to be where we end up and preparing for that eventuality

Tim is referring to Gavin's tweet above. I thought the same about his careful wording and I'm glad Tim has said it too.

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ClashCityRocker · 16/12/2018 08:38

No deal would trounce the deal in a referendum.

I suspect there's a lot of remainers who would prefer no deal to the deal.
And it is a view I have some sympathy with, were it not for the fact that no deal will destroy hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives.

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 08:42

Remainer here. Would NEVER vote No Deal. That is the toddler way out of this mess. Much like playing in the road.

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 08:44

I do not want a PV if it has No Deal as an option. I would rather TM WA.

Parker231 · 16/12/2018 08:46

news.sky.com/story/win-or-lose-what-next-for-may-11578920

What a disaster whatever happens!

ClashCityRocker · 16/12/2018 08:46

No, I'm with you belini.

The second ref thread on here is.... Terrifying.

Cherrypi · 16/12/2018 08:49

No deal would probably win. People are wilfully uninformed.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/12/2018 08:49

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jasjas1973 · 16/12/2018 09:04

I do not want a PV if it has No Deal as an option. I would rather TM WA

All Mays deal does is kick the can down the road, its not a solution and could lead to a no-deal in any case, who wants to go through all this in 20 months time?

You can't exclude options in a ballot, just because you don't like that outcome.

But so long as May in office, they'll never be a 2nd vote, her attack on Blair is truly astonishing, her whole conduct is demeaning the office of PM, a serial liar, incompetent and worse still making our country a laughing stock, national interest? by her own figures, her deal is worse for the country than remaining!

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 09:11

You can't exclude options in a ballot, just because you don't like that outcome.

Exactly.

And the idea that the EU could ‘block’ options on a U.K. ballot paper was absurd.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/12/2018 09:14

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WhatdoImean · 16/12/2018 09:19

I agree that the EU could not "block" options on a UK ballot paper is not possible.

However, it is entirely possible that the EU COULD say, "no extension, thank you very much. Brexit means Brexit, and as your PM has said, you are leaving on the 29th March. Have a nice day"

They might be more amenable to an extension IF the ballot paper included an option to remain, but that of course is purely a question for the UK government. Totally their choice. No pressure.... take your time...

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 09:22

A ballot that was just WA vs Remain would be argued to attempting to engineer people to vote Remain. Which, to be fair, is true.

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 09:23

"You can't exclude options in a ballot, just because you don't like that outcome."
Then we don't have the PV. It isn't a question of " not liking the outcome ". I wish it was.

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 09:26

But if No Deal means breaking the GFA and therefore international law could that really be on a public ballot?

Motheroffourdragons · 16/12/2018 09:27

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Motheroffourdragons · 16/12/2018 09:28

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Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 09:30

I'm not sure of the legality. I'm just pointing out the moral ambiguity of encouraging the public to vote for an option that violates international law.

TatianaLarina · 16/12/2018 09:31

The EU could potentially block an extension for a PV but that has its problems too.

A problem now is the media response here if the EU refuse to extend for a PV now everyone is setting their hopes on it.

If the principal objector was Ireland - that would put in in the firing line.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 09:42

The 'Boiling frog' phenomenon is still at work. With the gradual leakage if little snippets like the €7 to get a travel visa and the other bits and pieces, they are all just a few quid on top of your holiday and in many respects only those that holiday in the EU. Actually quite decisive itself thinking about it as leave voters are possibly less likely to want visas and phone roaming.
What is needed is a bit of a rush, either a wikileaks or dropping the NDAs so that people are aware of the scale of what is about to hit.
As a thought, are the HoC privy to the contents and scale of the NDAs? It seems to me that they are either ignorant or somehow 'in' on the plan to trash the UK. To me either answer is bad, they SHOULD have all read the WA document and they SHOULD be fully aware of the carnage that would ensue that is being hidden by NDAs as it is impossible for them to make a judgement either wat without this vital information.

I am supposed to be doing things but Hunt saying the UK will be fine with a 'no deal' has he suggested HOW this will be possible when big chunks of manufacturing disappear?

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 09:48

@Motheroffourdragons people are considering it as an option because
A) they are bored of this situation (who isn't); and
B) because they are still being conned about Project Fear.

Who does an economic catastrophe benefit? Those sharp enough to get in and pick up the pieces, be they carpetbagging Tories like JRM or left extremists like Macdonald and Corbyn.

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 09:50

@Moussemoose , we have two options: accept the imperfect WA and use the transition period to actually prepare OR revoke A50.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 09:50

Last evening I followed someone's link to an article in the Irish Times but having got there I then read the article by a couple of young guys cycling the NI border. While it is not 'Brexit' specific in its narrative it does bring home why ANY attempt at a border will be catastrophic.
It actually highlights more the case that not enough is being done to deescalate the deep rooted tensions that are there with for example only 7% of schoolchildren going to 'mixed' schools. While in a way it is 'social engineering' with so few being helped to appreciate alternative sides to the tensions it will take many years to percolate through society as a whole.