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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Mistigri · 15/12/2018 22:27

You ask for an extension of Article 50. If Ireland want to demand that we can only have this if no deal is not there then god love 'em. I would prefer it if parliament just refused to put in on the ballot because it would be so disastrous. Whilst I have no problem with Ireland demanding concessions in order to give us the extension - the leavers could spin that into frightening anti-Irish sentiment.

Ireland almost certainly wouldn't be alone.

The PV folks have fallen into the same trap as the leavers, ie assuming that the EU will agree to something and forgetting that the other side also has strategic goals which may be at odds with your own.

It's quite hard to see how this plays if it goes to the wire but I'd put some money on there being no A50 extension for a people's vote (now that revoke is definitely an option).

BackInTime · 15/12/2018 22:34

*She wants MPs to "get on with it" and go for "no deal" because "May's deal is bad, especially the backstop"

Turns out

A) she doesn't know what the backstop is, just it's bad.

B) she thinks "no deal" means everything remains as it is now*

I think this is probably pretty common. This issue is too complex to be put as a vote on a ballot. Add to this the emotive campaign that would accompany a vote - more lies, propaganda and half truths. I’m not sure I could stomach it.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 23:12

More from the pay walled Sunday Times article on the polling for Labour:

Jonathan Lis @ jonlis1
This is key line from @ShippersUnbound bombshell tomorrow. In 2016 the angry and enthused voters were Leavers. Remain was the insipid status quo. Now Leavers feel disillusioned. The angry and enthused voters want to remain. This will be a huge battle - but it’s there to be won

The other fantastically important section is this: not only do Labour Leavers not think Corbyn will negotiate a better deal, but a majority of them want a second referendum as well! Labour has nothing to lose from backing this. It’s literally a win-win.

Well that's a reason why it's unlikely to happen then.

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
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Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 23:29

The PV folks have fallen into the same trap as the leavers, ie assuming that the EU will agree to something and forgetting that the other side also has strategic goals which may be at odds with your own.

It's certainly not at odds with what I want if the entire EU put their foot down and say 'no deal cannot be on the ballot'. I absolutely don't want no deal on the ballot - I don't know how I would cope in the run up to a referendum where no deal was an option, I would be terrified.
BUT it is far better if the refusal to put no deal on the ballot comes from our own politicians and not the EU ones, as leavers will turn that into 'EU bullying' and use it as further proof as to why we need to leave. If it's just Ireland - which with their veto would be enough - that sentiment will be anti-Irish. If it's more EU countries that sentiment will be anti EU. Their insisting on no deal may actually harm remains chances.

Now - from their perspective I accept that that is absolutely fine. They have been messed around quite enough and they owe us nothing. But as a person who lives here, doesn't want any of this and will be forced to live through it anyway - I'm not being arrogant in forgetting that the EU has their own goals and needs and thinking they have to bow to what we want; I'm simply stating where I would prefer that 'no to no deal' insistence to come from. After all - if parliament refuse to put no deal on a ballot paper, the EU don't even have to mention it. If parliament preempt the EU in refusing no deal then that is a far far better outcome for remain than if the EU have to tell us we can't have no deal.
I respect that the EU may insist on it anyway - but I want parliament to insist on it first. That's all.

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 23:50

Plus - of course - it's a humiliation for parliament and the government if the EU are able to tell them what they can and can't do in a referendum in their own country. If they can work out what the EU would insist upon and choose to do that before the EU make their demands - so it looks like parliament thought of it first and is doing what it wanted to do all along - then it saves a bit of face.
Not that I care about them saving face - but they probably do.

GD12 · 15/12/2018 23:57

Government to advise not to go on holiday after March 29. We'll great, there goes my job! I actually said this a few months ago, our company was having meetings about what to do and redundancies etc. Now the government are to advise it.

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
HesterThrale · 16/12/2018 00:18

I agree pretzels another referendum would be excruciatingly nerve-wracking. I’m not entirely in favour of one; it could go well or very badly. But, if it happens... A PP suggested 2 questions: May’s deal or Revoke. I like the logic and simplicity of that. You’d have to say ‘we can’t have No Deal as an option because it breaks treaties’.

However I much prefer simply revoking and saying now we’re going to put our time, energy and efforts into mending the country. We’ll invest the £39 billion in public services. Because carrying on with this is pointless and solves nothing.
You know, a lot of folk might go for that. People are getting so sick of this. It requires honesty and bravery from leaders though.

IsobelKarev · 16/12/2018 01:27

people are getting so sick of this

I agree with this. Most people barely mention Brexit. Even this week, I am the only person I know who has been following the news closely. There are hardliners on both sides obsessed with the issue, but imo the vast majority just want to get on with life. And we have quite enough day to day issues (UC, underfunded schools, increasing hospital waiting lists, affordable housing etc) to be getting on with.

If it were me in charge, I'd start properly publishing the disaster warnings of exactly what would happen in the event of no deal. Impact assessments must exist, so they should be released. The WA isn't going to get through parliament and it isn't going to be renegotiated. So make it absolutely clear to the country what "honouring the result of the referendum" means.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 05:28

Well, "courage, integrity and clarity for our politicians” would indeed require Divine Intervention 🎄
so maybe the bishops have the right idea

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/15/bishops-pray-for-politicians-integrity-amid-brexit-turmoil

Church of England bishops have said they are praying for “courage, integrity and clarity for our politicians” after a week of turmoill^ over Brexit.a

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 05:34

By February, either business flight, shares & Sterling slide ... or they've been persuaded somehow that it won't be No Deal
Or they are all shutting their eyes and going lalala, which may be the case in Brexit Britain, but would be odd for dealers abroad

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 05:45

I enjoyed Marina Hyde's continental phrase "le backwards"
to describe how May's attempt to get more concessions from the EU actually resulted in their removing a couple of helpful paragraphs from the WA 🤦🏻‍♀️

and that the confidence vote against was
"like Game of Thrones, only re-enacted by the sort of Westminster inadequates who masturbate to Game of Thrones." 😂🤮

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/theresa-may-brussels-pizza-hut

MerdedeBrexit · 16/12/2018 05:47

Just popping in to share this view from Switzerland
Apologies if it has been posted already.

borntobequiet · 16/12/2018 05:48

I’ve said it before, but what we need is for businesses to break their confidentiality agreements en masse. How they are keeping schtum I don’t know, given the consequences.

borntobequiet · 16/12/2018 06:11

And hi, Merde and BigChoc - we’re three early birds on a Sunday morning! I get up to put my tumble dryer on at the cheap rate, but I like early mornings so no problem.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 06:34

Businesses look after their own interests - they are legally responsible to their shareholders for profits.
They are not responsible for exposing govt cockups to the public.

So, they keep quiet if they think they will be crucified by Brexit politicians & media as Remainer saboteurs and piss off say the ⅓ of their customers who still really want Brexit.

They have however been postponing investment decisions, or investing abroad instead.

Many will probably hold on to the last minute, betting that no PM would be irresponsible enough to allow No Deal, especially those who would have to close / move plants, because that is really expensive.

Come February though, if the HoC is still logjammed, we may see some more prominent businesses pulling out or laying off.

MerdedeBrexit · 16/12/2018 06:46

Hi, borntobequiet - I'm not that early as am an expat currently living in the desert. Unfortunately, I lost my UK vote years ago. This Brexit fiasco has hardened my decision not to return to England to live, I'm afraid, as I am horrified by the way the country is going. Sad Even if somehow there is a "Dallas shower moment" and the country goes back to where it was on 23rd June 2016, the damage has been done, I believe. Sad

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 06:51

Hi Born and everyone ** I'm always awake from 5 ish too! We went out last night in a group with a Dad who was formerly a (very, very vocal) Leaver.

Last night he was equally vocal about what a mess it is and about how we need a PV. He clearly has been reading up and now sees we need the SM and CU at least. Ideally he wants us to return to a leading role in the bloc.

I think before he was tempted by the chances of making a quick buck with the US and now he sees what a folly that belief was.

borntobequiet · 16/12/2018 07:13

Good morning, Lonely! A couple of people I know have changed their minds, from Leave to Remain but one moderate Leaver has become very hard core. However he is a contrarian by nature and will always cut off his nose to spite his face, the idiot, that’s why I left him many years ago.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/12/2018 07:25

A contrarian indeed Born! Confirmation of a wise decision (if any were needed).

The ex Leaver last night was super matey with us and behaved like we wouldn't remember his previous stance at all!

Other Leavers I know have become more hardcore though. One I know keeps re- posting those police appeals for witnesses on FB. But she only reposts it if some- one 'foreign' is involved. I looked on her police authority website to check. There were over a dozen appeals of help for white British thefts,fights, crimes etc. Over a dozen. She had only circulated the one report where a bank card theft was thought to be by some one Polish. It's insidious.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 07:27

My large family in the NE are hardcore Leavers.
Still "Remoaners project fear" there

Oh, just pulled the curtains back and there's SNOW outside ☃️
Looks a few inches, the first this year
Anyone else, in Scotland maybe ?

I was going for a (very slow) jog by the Rhine, but I'll put on more clothes and go for a trudge instead

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 07:27

I was supposed to be going to a wedding in Ireland in July.

That could be interesting.

Seriously though, Ive said to DH for some time that we shouldn't book a holiday after March 29th and have said to him to try to avoid work trips abroad immediately after until we know what's happening.

Unless of course, we end up seconded to the EU between now and then - which is looking increasingly likely.

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BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 07:28

That's ugly re the police reports, lonely Someone to avoid

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 07:32

Tony Connelly @tconnellyRTE
Jeremy Hunt: UK will 'flourish and prosper' if it walks away from the EU without a deal

“In August, Mr Hunt said a messy no-deal Brexit would be “a mistake we would regret for generations” but said the UK would still survive and prosper.”

It looks a lot like Irish broadcaster Tony Connelly is really unconvinced by what Jeremy says and thinks that perhaps Jeremy is making noises to convince somebody of something he doesn't hold deep seated conviction about...

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RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 07:36

Schona Jolly QC @womaninhavana
If @ShippersUnbound in the @thesundaytimes is right about Lidington planning a 2 way referendum, with Deal v No Deal offered without any option to Remain, this is beyond contemptuous.

Democracy moves, breathes and changes.

Let the public have a chance to reflect that

PV proposed as deal v no deal...

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RedToothBrush · 16/12/2018 07:39

Robert Halflon @ halfon4harlowmp
Please tell me @GavinBarwell @DLidington that this Report of planning for a 2cnd Referendum NOT true. Wld be a complete betrayal of what @theresa_may said about respecting 2016 #Peoples' referendum &moreover a betrayal of democracy, of 17millions+ GB who voted by majority 2 Leave

Gavin Barwell @ gavinbarwell
Happy to confirm I do not want a 2nd referendum @halfon4harlowMP - both for the reason you give and because it would further divide the country when we should be trying to bring people back together.

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