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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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jasjas1973 · 15/12/2018 19:42

TatianaLarina

They'll be no unity government, pie in sky & in any case no need at all.

This crisis is of our own making & unlike previous threats we've faced, the Government can resolve this tomorrow.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 19:45

People don’t accept that they don’t understand it though and that’s what will cause the uproar - the riots even. How do we manage that? Farage is already out telling everyone their precious Brexit is about to be ripped from their grasp.

Leave means Leave is already campaigning. Who is campaigning to Remain?

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 19:56

There is nothing more unicorn than hoping a PV, which may conceivably have a no deal option, in which you asking people to vote on subjects that the majority do not even remotely understand, is going to save you from this chaos. It could easily make things 10 x worse.

I don't think anybody here actually believes 100% that a PV will rescue us. Not only do we not know what will be on the ballot paper, but we also cannot trust the campaigns to be honest and we know we cannot trust the electorate. Absolutely no one is saying that a PV will definitely result in exactly what we want.

However a PV - regardless of what is on the ballot - is both possible and feasible. TM's own allies are preparing for one. The HoC is at an impasse and it is a definite possibility for breaking that impasse. Whatever the result - the HoC would then have a mandate to pass something. As they voted to trigger article 50 - when it was clearly a terrible idea - we can assume that they would also abide by the results of this new referendum. And if that came out pro WA - so be it.

A national coalition - particularly following a vote of no confidence in which the brexiteers will have an opportunity to scramble around and get one of their own into power - is not a feasible solution. Nothing has happened to suggest that parliament would be able to deliver such a thing. That is why touting it as a possibility is unicorn territory. With the incompetent and venal shower we have at the moment it will not happen - so there is no point in thinking about it.

A PV might happen. Might not. TM doesn't seem to want one - but eventually things might get so bad that they have to - and it is a lot easier to do than create a cross parliament coalition when there is no will to do so. It becomes the path of least resistance (except for running the clock down).
Doesn't mean it will go our way. Doesn't mean we expect it to go our way. But it is the only feasible in this situation and with the people we have way of breaking that impasse.

Your way is better. No arguments here. But it isn't going to happen and wishing will not make it so. If it would - brexit would already be a rip roaring success.

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 20:24

I'm inclined to think that a PV happens only if A50 is revoked. Why would the EU agree to an extension for another referendum, the outcome of which is hugely uncertain and might make things worse? If I were Ireland I'd only agree to extend if no-deal was not on the list of options. That makes extension for a PV politically impossible on both sides, IMO.

The EU might extend A50 for a GE, though I increasingly think that they might not. I think you'd see a split, as happened last week, with the Dutch and Germans prepared to entertain more dithering about by the British, but other countries drawing a hard line. Once again, it may depend on Ireland.

So my view is that if the deal can't be passed then it comes down to no-deal or revoke. I would find it hard to rank them in terms of probability, but no-deal has the "merit" of not requiring anyone to do or decide anything.

Revoke doesn't rule out a referendum or a GE - or indeed any other outcome including triggering A50 again and leaving without a deal. However, getting A50 through parliament again would be difficult for any government without holding a GE first and probably without some sort of reselection process to unseat remain-supporting MPs.

BackInTime · 15/12/2018 20:31

If a GE got rid of the reliance on the DUP, would a boarder in the Irish Sea be a more workable option?

BackInTime · 15/12/2018 20:32

*border

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 20:38

I'm inclined to think that a PV happens only if A50 is revoked.

I think once article 50 is revoked they'll never mention it again. No GE, no referendum. Nothing. There is not a parliamentary majority to go through all this rigmarole a second time. Plus there is the 'good faith' expectation - if we revoke purely to gain more time then we will face consequences in the EU even before we start negotiating.

I would love article 50 to be revoked without going to the people - but I don't think anyone will be brave enough to do that unless it is a panicked revoke on March 29th to avoid a crash out.

But once it's revoked then it is revoked for the foreseeable future. Hence why, in any circumstances other than a last minute panic, parliament would want a mandate from the people to do it.

What would be the point in revoking only to start again with the exact same unicorns? It would be an endless groundhog day of awfulness. Brexiteers demanding what isn't possible and so no one able to make any progress.

If they were sensible, rather than ask the people what they wanted to happen - they should ask the people what they want parliament to do. Very slight difference in terminology - but means it isn't about pie in the sky wishful thinking 'my brexit looks like this' it becomes 'these are the options on the table, parliament can do this or this (ideally W.A or revoke) - but nothing else is possible - which do you want?'

And the people can rail against that all they like - but when the democratic decision of the people is impossible, reality becomes undemocratic - but we still have to abide by it. Anything else becomes akin to voting to revoke gravity.

Loletta · 15/12/2018 20:42

If a GE got rid of the reliance on the DUP, would a boarder in the Irish Sea be a more workable option?

TM said that no PM would ever sell off NI to the Republic so I guess there's not much likelihood of this happening.

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 20:50

I would love article 50 to be revoked without going to the people - but I don't think anyone will be brave enough to do that unless it is a panicked revoke on March 29th to avoid a crash out.

But, practically, how do you get a PV without more time? And how do you get more time without revoking A50?

I cannot see Ireland agreeing to extend A50 for a PV with "no deal" on the ballot. They would be mad to agree to that; it would effectively mean Ireland agreeing to facilitate a vote on whether the UK should break an international treaty of which Ireland is a co-signatory.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 21:13

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/15/jeremy-hunt-uk-will-flourish-prosper-walks-away-eu-without-deal/amp/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
Jeremy Hunt: UK will 'flourish and prosper' if it walks away from the EU without a deal

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 21:15

Paul Brand ITV @ paulbranditv
Amber Rudd making overtures to Labour backbenchers today, but from my conversations all goodwill seems to have been lost. Unlikely they'll now coalesce around a deal that doesn't involve a People's Vote, as @RupaHuq suggests to me here.
t.co/SEDQfg5FWY

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TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 21:22

I don't think anybody here actually believes 100% that a PV will rescue us.

Absolutely no one is saying that a PV will definitely result in exactly what we want

Why do it then? It’s crazy. No idea of the questions, massively dishonest campaigns, populace with no grasp of the issues. What could possibly go wrong?

However a PV - regardless of what is on the ballot - is both possible

That a PV is possible is not an argument in its favour. Same for car crashes. Of course May et al are preparing for it - they see it as their only way to hang on to power, and they want to avoid a no confidence vote.

Despite your conviction it’s not option there’s increasing talk in London of a national government. If Labour etc go through with their vote of no confidence then it is a potential outcome. Tory Brexiters don’t have enough support across Parliament to end up with one of their twits in charge of a coalition. And cross party rule would help drown out their silly voices. That’s not to say it will go smoothly - I’ve no doubt there would be a lot of squawking.

Your way is better. No arguments here

Well that’s what we should demand then, rather than collapsing onto a vote that may conceivably make everything much worse.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 21:23

I cannot see Ireland agreeing to extend A50 for a PV with "no deal" on the ballot. They would be mad to agree to that; it would effectively mean Ireland agreeing to facilitate a vote on whether the UK should break an international treaty of which Ireland is a co-signatory.

Good point. Ireland, as ever, may save us from ourselves.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 21:35

Simon Cox @ simonfrcox
Got a minor criminal conviction? Even a spent one? Good luck getting a visa waiver to visit EU26

You’ll likely have to apply for a visa. More expensive & slow. And easily refusable. Maybe no right of appeal (UK doesn’t give one).

More work for migration lawyers: advising & assisting those who can afford one.

I say EU26 because Ireland & UK aim to still have reciprocal free movement for UK & Irish citz. But actually, we should add EFTA4 to the need a visa (waiver) list. Because Schengen.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/14/britons-must-pay-7-euros-to-visit-mainland-europe-after-brexit-eu-free-movement?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true
Britons must pay €7 to visit mainland Europe after Brexit
Rule will take effect as soon as EU’s free movement laws no longer apply, document shows

There are a lot of people who aren't going on holiday to Spain anymore...

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 21:42

Tatiana, I can think of several reasons why no deal would be unlikely to be on a PV ballot. There's the EU blocking it as well as there being a parliamentary majority which has already voted to try and block a no deal and since Parliament would decide the options for a PV I find it hard to imagine it would be on there. Even if May tried to put it on - it'd be surprised if it didn't get slung out on amendments.

I don't fancy or like the idea of a PV, BUT the fact that it might be the only way we can be assured of getting no deal off the table is why I'd give it a luke warm reception.

The problem I forsee is the reaction that not allowing no deal to be on the ballot would get.

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 21:45

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-remainers-to-abandon-corbyn-if-he-passes-brexit-deal-6zfjgnm5w
Pass Brexit deal and fall behind Lib Dems, voters tell Corbyn in poll

Labour would fall behind the Liberal Democrats in the polls if Jeremy Corbyn helps the Tories to secure Brexit, according to a huge new poll.

The YouGov survey of 5,000 voters, commissioned by the People’s Vote campaign, shows that support for Labour could fall from 36% to 22% if they helped the Tories to pass a compromise deal with Brussels like the one advocated by Theresa May.

Under those circumstances, the Lib Dems would soar from 10% to 26% — their highest rating in any poll since they entered coalition government with the Tories in 2010.

And this is why Labour would push for a PV with a soft Brexit v remain option on the ballot thus attempting to retain as many voters as possible.

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Mistigri · 15/12/2018 21:50

The problem I forsee is the reaction that not allowing no deal to be on the ballot would get.

I just don't see how we get to PV without revoking A50, because the EU will not want to extend A50 for a vote involving no deal, and will see no political advantage to a PV without no-deal on the menu.

If the EU extends A50 for a PV without a no-deal option, it'll get accused of wanting the UK to vote until it gives the right answer. Why bother? A better gamble is to ratchet up the pressure until British MPs vote for the deal that's on the table, or until the government revokes A50.

Loletta · 15/12/2018 21:55

But assuming the UK asks for an extension for a referendum, will it have to decide the questions on the ballot before the EU approves it? Or can the questions be decided by HoC at later stage?
This latter scenario would be dangerous because No Deal could be sneaked in at the last minute after the EU has approved the extension.
Am I wrong?

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 21:58

But, practically, how do you get a PV without more time? And how do you get more time without revoking A50?

You ask for an extension of Article 50. If Ireland want to demand that we can only have this if no deal is not there then god love 'em. I would prefer it if parliament just refused to put in on the ballot because it would be so disastrous. Whilst I have no problem with Ireland demanding concessions in order to give us the extension - the leavers could spin that into frightening anti-Irish sentiment.

That a PV is possible is not an argument in its favour.
In a discusion about what is possible it certainly is. I can make a wish list a mile long of what I would prefer to happen before we got to a PV - but it would be as much cake as the brexiteers wish list.
Only things that can happen are really worth talking about. Talking about what we want is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Both JC and TM want brexit. From that starting point - no national coalition can be made without first getting rid of both of them. That takes time - we do not have time. The EU will not extend article 50 because the opposition brought down the govt. Not unless there is a promise of a general election right away. A national coalition being formed in order to then hold an election is not going to be enough for them. Even if we suppose that the current crop in Westminster can put nation before party, pull their heads out of their arses, learn what a CU is and how the EU works all before March 29th ... they still don't have the balls or the mandate to revoke article 50.

A national coalition - specifically working to revoke article 50, for which there is currently no majority in parliament - only works IF JC calls a no confidence vote and IF he wins it and IF he is then deposed by people more competent and IF during that bloodletting the tory head bangers don't sneak in and IF all these groups can reach a consensus and IF they then have the will and the backbone to go through with that and IF the rest of parliament don't block them.

It is a heck of an ask, and a heck of a gamble. With other, more competent, politicians and in other circumstances it may well be a very sensible route through a crisis. With what we actually have it doesn't stand a cat in hell's chance in succeeding and requires an awful lot of goodwill effort even to try it - when what we actually have is deadlock and inertia.

In the list of likely things to happen this must rank way below a PV. That's why a PV is being talked about and worked towards. Not because it it is the best way forward under any circumstances - but because it is a likely and feasible way forward. It can be achieved under the circumstances in which we currently find ourselves and that is what is important.
Pushing for something better is very noble and would be the right thing to do IF we didn't have that looming deadline in a 100 days.
It has to come down to 'what do we have time for?' 'what is it actually possible to achieve?' and not 'what do we want?'

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 22:03

John Harris @ johnharris1969
This is good. I keep having conversations about Project Fear etc, so let's hear about No Deal from the road haulage industry t.co/Zm3lX7p2Bc

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
No deal would mean '7 million customs declarations for one [lorry] firm in one week'. Holy moly.

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TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 22:03

A better gamble is to ratchet up the pressure until British MPs vote for the deal that's on the table, or until the government revokes A50.

Yep.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 22:04

Keep getting this on my FB feed. Just me or does it read like they’re hiring people to say “Don’t panic!!!” ?

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 22:12

Harry Cole @mrharrycole
Fun filled MoS!

💥 @GavinBarwell plots 2nd referendum - but May resists.

💥Philip May takes control of bid to oust his wife.

💥 Raab calls foul after bloggers tipped off about “management style”

💥 Leadsom declares she is running to pals

💥 Hunt says no deal no big deal

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 22:14

Just seen a tweet by some one which shows just how dangerous a PV with no deal on the ballot would be:

Just chatted with my mum.

She wants MPs to "get on with it" and go for "no deal" because "May's deal is bad, especially the backstop"

Turns out

A) she doesn't know what the backstop is, just it's bad.

B) she thinks "no deal" means everything remains as it is now

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UnnecessaryFennel · 15/12/2018 22:14

I saw Gavin Barwell in Waitrose this morning, pushing his little trolley around and wearing a rather unpleasant grey tracksuit. You'd think he had other things to do, but I guess even May's chief-of-staff needs milk...

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