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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:35

Danish prime minister Lars Løkke Rasmussenn_, on his way out of the summit:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/what-if-eu-leaders-had-agreed-to-theresa-may-s-backstop-request-1.3731885

“Someday, somebody needs to say it . . . and you have to say – openly – that it is necessary that you get some homework done in the British parliament,
which has handled this challenge very differently to Denmarkk^, when the Danes voted No to Maastricht, or the Irish, when they voted No to Lisbon.

“In both countries, someone took responsibility to decide what do we do.

In both Denmark and Ireland, somebody took it upon themselves to say what can unite us in our country and what should we ask from Europe.”

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:36

Tatiana If the PV chooses the WA, then the HoC will pass it.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 17:37

if the majority vote for the WA but Parliament won’t pass it we’re back where we started

I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t after a PV.

nicoala1 · 15/12/2018 17:37

TM wants Brexit, Corbyn wants Brexit.

Great to see an Opposition with the same views.... not. That is why there is inertia I think. Who is fighting the Remain Corner now? Well, no one it seems.

May as well go to bed, cover our heads and see what happens in the morning.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:38

WA Or Remain, or No Deal.

A PV only happens if the HoC are too cowardly to decide themselves and pass back the decision to the voters.
Of course they'll accept whatever the PV says

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 17:42

I think cowardly is unfair. They’re in an impossible position.

A question was put to the public with no clear solution, no clear consensus on why Leave was chosen or what people don’t like about the EU, insufficient information on the impact of leaving etc.

With the narrative of Brexit betrayal they’re damned either way. On the one hand they let the country go to no deal which will be a disaster and on the other they’ll be forevermore accused of betraying the people they’re supposed to represent.

The only way to break that deadlock is to return to the people.

Talkinpeece · 15/12/2018 17:47

The only way to break that deadlock is to return to the people.
And what if the people come out with 51:49 to remain ?
Will that actually solve anything ?
The country is still riven.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 17:53

51:49 remain would at least allow for a reasonable basis to revoke A50 until such time as the UK has figured out what to do - what the actual issues with being EU members are, what the facts are, what the options are.

51:49 remain at PV absolutely removes No Deal as a viable option IMO. It retains WA as a middle ground leave option that doesn’t tear the country to pieces but still honours the Leave result if MPs believe strongly enough that we should leave now.

The referendum did not promise any particular kind of leave nor did it promise a date to leave by. Some politicians may have done that and someone needs to stand up and say those promises should never have been made.

We’re in a mess. What other options do we have?

What is clear is we need a serious shake up of accountability in politics. It’s absurd that TV adverts have stricter rules than politicians.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:53

If the PV chooses the WA, then the HoC will pass it.

We can’t be sure of that. And we can still end up with no deal even if they do.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 17:54

How do we end up with No Deal if HOC passes WA?

I agree it’s not 100% but MPs would have a very hard time arguing their case if PV says WA is the best option.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:55

Staying in deadlock until 29 March results in No Deal

I suspect the DUP would be just as happy as the ERG to let the clock run out

They would be real idiots to assume Corbyn would care about the "precious union" as much as May
Also, NI polls suggest they are losing support, so they might not retain all 10 seats.

So I only expect them to vote No Confidence if the WA actually passes, as they stated.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:57

Once in transition, even if the negotaiations for a new deal fail, that is where the NI backstop kicks in,
with CU and chunks of rules copied from the SM.

So there couldn't be a No Deal there.
That's a big reason the ERG hate the WA - the backstop preents No Deal.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:58

Because it would strengthen the Tories, and the Brexit loons see the WA as something to get out of - hence the fury over the backstop - a temporary measure giving them more time to prepare for no deal. If May is replaced by a headbanger there’s no telling where we will end up.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:58

prevents No Deal

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 18:01

There is nowhere near a majority for No Deal in the HoC - fewer than 100 MPs are hard Brexiters.

I expect all parties except the DUP would mostly vote for a WA or Revoke if the PV returned that.

If the ERG was suicidal enough to refuse to implement a PV, it wouldn't matter

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 18:03

May won her confidence vote, so cannot be toppled while she is PM, at least.
She'd resign if she lost a GE.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 18:07

Once the WA is signed, the backstop can NOT be got rid of by the UK,
unless the govt decides to withdraw from the WA and / or the GFA
in which case no country would trust the UK or want deals with it - except Trump's FTA / licence to loot

Violetparis · 15/12/2018 18:12

Ben Bradshaw, the pro EU Labour MP was on Sky News earlier promoting the idea of a second referendum. He was asked whether No Deal would be on the ballot and he said he would be open to the idea. There will be much disagreement and discussion about what would be on a second ballot. Would the EU really wait for the UK to resolve yet another internal squabble with no guarentee that no deal would be avoided ? I'm so sick of it all.

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 18:19

No confidence vote -> national unity government formed - ie cross party coalition - they are the ones who make the decision.

But this is just unicorn stuff! I'm not saying it isn't a nice idea or that in theory it isn't a workable plan. The practice is very different though. We have seen absolutely nothing - from either main party - that suggests anyone will start acting like grownups and start putting the national interest first. Living in that world, as we do, the idea of toppling the govt because we hope someone afterwards will do something sensible is a nuclear option of disaster.

There is, however, perfectly good reason to assume that parliament will pass whatever result the PV delivers - they voted to trigger article 50, without a plan, based on the will of a 4% majority. They have precedence for abiding by the result of a referendum, no matter how stupid. They do not have precedence for behaving like competent grownups.

I would much prefer revocation to a PV - but thinking that will come from a cross party national alliance, after two years of inertia, infighting and acting like toddlers, is just blatant wishful thinking.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 18:38

Yes, I'd absolutely love a cross-party coalition, but I see no chance of it happening
particularly while Corbyn is Labour leader - imo, he'd refuse, even in the very unlikely event May offered.
He just wants to beat the Tories and become PM

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 18:49

I expect all parties except the DUP would mostly vote for a WA or Revoke if the PV returned that.

I know you do, but there’s no guarantee. Headbangers oppose the backstop and sensible MPs know its disastrous. So it might not get passed, then we have a quagmire of court vs country.

Once the WA is signed, the backstop can NOT be got rid of by the UK

No shit. Everything else is up for grabs though.

BiglyBadgers · 15/12/2018 18:55

May will never offer to have a cross party coalition. She won't even collaborate with people in her own party...or even her own cabinet!

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 19:00

{Yes, I'd absolutely love a cross-party coalition, but I see no chance of it happening}
But a cross party, where both parties want both in and out could mean a cross party wanting a 'hard' no deal out.
Peter Bone was on Any Questions last evening. Continually repeating the same crap that was debunked a year or so ago, bloody tedious.
Why are so many allowed to keep spouting stuff that is a lie?
Unless the HoC has a major education programme they can't be trusted to make a decision. I have only a couple of 1 hour chunks where May was answering questions and so many members were asking basic questions and often repeating questions that had been asked by others but using a couple of different words. Even Mrs May was sounding bored when she kept referring them to previous answers. Everything is geared up to 29 March with no suggestions if there will be a 30th March and what will happen to make the UK great again.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 19:21

There is nothing more unicorn than hoping a PV, which may conceivably have a no deal option, in which you asking people to vote on subjects that the majority do not even remotely understand, is going to save you from this chaos. It could easily make things 10 x worse.

We can’t be sure that Parliament will ratify the outcome, they did so with art50 in ignorance of where we would end up. Now they know the dire outcomes facing this country. And if it’s a vote for No Deal do you really want them to vote for that? That will inevitably cause a pitched fight in HoC and so it should.

Government’s job is to govern. We have had national governments in living memory - 3 this century, two WWs and the great depression. If things go wrong with the governing party, it’s the job of the rest of the government has to step in.

The need has to meet several criteria: First there has to be a severe national crisis - fair assessment of our current state of minority government led by a discredited PM who’s negotiated a Brexit deal she can’t get through Parliament. The clock is ticking and we face no deal.

Secondly, the current government can’t continue. Tories can’t get their deal through, the only alternatives are no deal or revocation which the PM has ruled out. The DUP liable to withdraw support over the backstop.

Thirdly - a conventional coalition is unavailable. That is where we are now - neither Tories nor Labour can strike coalition deals with LDs or SNP.

Far more sane to do that than throw the dice in the air again - as if we hadn’t learnt from the last time - and ask the people to provide an answer to a question they don’t even bloody understand.

Talkinpeece · 15/12/2018 19:38

Wanting a mixed party government in the current circumstances
is as stupid
as the sunlit uplands of Brexit

we have to start from where we are
not where we wish we were