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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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prettybird · 15/12/2018 16:01

I don't see the SNP participating in a government of national unity. They may however help in a Confidence and Supply arrangement. They've played a canny game so far - despite a hard/No Deal Brexit being a potential way to accelerate the demand for Indyref2 (and increasing the probability of winning it) - as the only "grown ups in the room" (as someone on here described Nicola recently).

But I think actively supporting this cock-up of England's making (and Wales) would be a politically pragmatic step too far.

The only way that they might do so (in either scenario) would be with an absolute commitment to a Section 30 notice to allow Scotland to hold Indyref2.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 16:03

I don't think a PV OR a GE are a good idea. But neither is no deal.

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lonelyplanetmum · 15/12/2018 16:12

I just struck me as I was walking back from shopping in the rain.

Everyone gets so bogged down in the detail.

Last year our neighbours all clubbed together to get super fast broadband put in. To be honest we thought we didn't need it really - we just weren't bothered- but we'd have looked like difficult Billy no mates if we the only ones who didn't chip in. So we went along with it.

I know it's an annoying analogy but ...

The 27 countries next door happen have a trading bloc. It's insane to isolate ourselves. Even if some of it's a bit annoying (to some) most of it's very beneficial and positive. It's that simple.

What the fuck are we doing.

DGRossetti · 15/12/2018 16:14

I think we should remind Brexiteers that they made it abundantly clear there would be a deal, so having "no deal" as an option on any PV would be against their explicit guarantees before the first referendum.

Or will they rewrite that history too ?

Hazardswan · 15/12/2018 16:19

@LadyTy don't worry about being word perfect, say you support revoking article 50. How do you support it? Would you like MPs from across parties to all agree to it if necessary to aviod a people's vote? Would you like a people's vote with no brexit/remain option and May's deal? Do you believe no deal is disastrous and breaks the Good Friday agreement so should be scraped as a possibility? Literally just tell them what you think and how you feel then if you can why you feel the way you do. The last bit makes it personal.
Thank you for making your voice heard it's really important. Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 16:27

We need to deal in reality, not wishful thinking

If we Revoke, we need to understand that the 4 pillars of the EU are here to stay.

In fact if a future batshit Tory govt try to Brexit again in a few years, they still need to accept the 4 pillars - and the NI backstop.

The WA cannot be renegotiated, except for maybe adding the transition tweak I suggested
There is no time to develop a totally new concept, except in transition - i.e. via the WA

So, it is WA or Remain, unless the UK cannot make up its fucking mind and we run out of time

I'd support anything that would avoid a No Deal, because that would wreck the UK & the country might never get back to where it was.

I've never liked the PV, but I'd accept it if that's the only way to break the political logjam
I'd much prefer that the HoC had a majority - even the 316 vote minimum - for something, whether the WA or Remain
May Revoking on her own is the possibility that terrifies the ERG and would save us from No deal,
but might not resolve the bitter Remain / Leave divisions in the country

imo, a GE before Brexit has been decided would do nothing but waste time

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 16:39

I don't see the SNP participating in a government of national unity. They may however help in a Confidence and Supply arrangement.

A fair point. There’s no question this is E & W mess. But the Brexit outcome deeply affects Scotland’s future thus it should have its say. The Scot Remain vote in the ref counted for nothing. And Nic Sturgeon was very frustrated to be sidelined and patronised by May. This would be way to ensure that Scotland’s voice counts. And as you say she’s one of the few grownups...

But you may be right Scot doesn’t want to be involved.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 16:46

I've never liked the PV, but I'd accept it if that's the only way to break the political logjam

That’s what you hope will come out of it. It could make things exponentially worse if the country chooses no deal. And if it chooses WA we could still end up with no deal. If it chooses WA and Parliament won’t ratify it - what then?

I don’t want to get stuck with the choice of large sections of the population who have no idea what they’re actually voting about.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 16:55

imo, a GE before Brexit has been decided would do nothing but waste time

It’s very clear the current gov can’t decide a Brexit. It’s either WA or No Deal - both dreadful. That being the case we need to change the government as not fit for purpose. It’s had 2 years to come up with a shit deal it can’t even get through Parliament, so that’s that.

By revoking art50 and then having a GE, Brexit is essentially ‘decided’.

DGRossetti · 15/12/2018 16:59

In the event of a PV, you'd think "fool me once ..." etc.

The framing of the questions - and the roadmap leading from each possible outcome (be it 2,3 or 4) needs to be clearly laid out in a binding form so that there's nothing nebulous about any way forward.

Given it's such an important point in the UKs history, it's not something that should be rushed, or left to party politics. There would need to be a cross party - and cross nation - collaboration.

Not the back of a fag packet approach of 2016, which made reception class choices look sophisticated.

As a Remainer, if there were to be a second vote - and it did deliver some form of consensus majority for Leave, then I would much better reconciled to it knowing that the matter would pass to a special cross-party committee.

I don't think it's too controversial to suggest that had Theresa May immediately called all parties (and assemblies and parliaments) into a close working party to deliver Brexit, then this forum might not exists, and if it did, the posts would probably be less invective.

But she didn't - and regardless of what happens, her place as the PM that fucked up Brexit is already assured.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 16:59

Tatiana Unless either May or the HoC decide on something, then No Deal is automatic

If politicians are too cowardly / party political to decide for themselves what to do, then a PV would be the only way to stop No Deal

I hope we don't get to that point - especially with the (small) chance some awkward bugger among the E27 vetos an extension and hence the PV.

However, to avoid this, we need May or the HoC to blink and put country before party, either Remain or WA

If the electors in a PV still vote against Remain, that's democracy - accepting that people will vote for things I think are dreadful.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:02

Corbyn is every bit as delusional about a "special deal" as any (other) hardcore longterm Brexiter
He's no saviour
A GE would be frying pan into the fire, if he gets in

And it would waste time
Tick Tock

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:08

I don't want a GE until at least one party chooses a REAL option, Remain or WA
Then it must go in the manifesto

I don't trust Corbyn not to slip in No Deal at the last moment
He told us what he believed in when he demanded A50 be invoked immediately after the ref

Currently, both the govt and the opposition are useless ditherers, putting party before country

At least if the Tories stay in power, they will carry the can for the disaster they have created.
Even Revoke now won't bring back the lost contracts and probably not the lost agencies either

DGRossetti · 15/12/2018 17:14

If we had grown up politicians, the all parties should make it clear in advance how they would behave in the event that the will of the people is no party gets a majority.

They won't obviously, because they aren't as clever as they think they are. And the Great British Public won't think anything of it, as they slurp on the poison brew that is our mainstream media.

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 17:15

Article 50 should be revoked before a GE.

I really can't see that happening.

If the govt is pulled down and there is no govt - hence the need to hold the GE - who is in charge to make that decision?

Who would be bold enough to make such a massive step just as they go to the public - knowing full well it could lead to them getting absolutely hammered?

The whole problem is nobody is brave enough to take the steps necessary to avert this crisis. Nobody is gonna grow the backbone required to do something sensible, but potentially massively unpopular, just as the political popularity contest is about to take place.

Of all the things that might happen, I think a vote of no confidence followed by revocation before a GE is the least likely. If there was appetite to revoke they'd just do it already.
Revocation after a GE - where the party stood on a revocation ticket - might happen, but is way way too much of a gamble for anyone sensible to seriously consider.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:18

Unless either May or the HoC decide on something, then No Deal is automatic

No deal is automatic unless the HoC triggers no confidence which we know Labour (encouraged by SNP) are considering. They want to do so when they would be likely to win. The best likelihood of winning is if it’s the only way to stop no deal. Followed by revocation of art50.

If politicians are too cowardly / party political to decide for themselves what to do, then a PV would be the only way to stop No Deal

We’re approaching crunch point where politicians have to shit or get off the pot.

PV may be the very thing that triggers no deal by majority vote. Or a majority vote for WA that Parliament won’t ratify.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:24

There would be no point to a PV unless it is to break a political logjam

The HoC would deliver whatever the PV chooses: Remain / WA / No Deal
The Political consequences of not doing so would destroy the party / parties involved

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:24

I don't want a GE until at least one party chooses a REAL option, Remain or WA

Doesn’t have to be one party. Could be coalition/national government.
I don’t think the choice should be left to one party (arguably it should never have been). Art 50 should be revoked before GE otherwise it will be a shambles.

DGRossetti · 15/12/2018 17:26

I don’t think the choice should be left to one party (arguably it should never have been)

I don't think there's any argument about that at all.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:27

If the govt is pulled down and there is no govt - hence the need to hold the GE - who is in charge to make that decision?

No confidence vote -> national unity government formed - ie cross party coalition - they are the ones who make the decision.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:28

Politicians can demand a GE be about Brexit, but it wasn't in 2017
and it would still be mainly tribal Labour / Tory in 2019

Many ordinary Labour voters and floating voters will never vote for Corbyn

If he went first, that would indeed break the logjam
People talk about getting rid of May - it's Corbyn that needs to go.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 17:30

I would love a cross-party govt
and one to run for long enough so that a GE doesn't mean a new Brexiter PM invoking again.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:30

There would be no point to a PV unless it is to break a political logjam

That doesn’t mean it will break the logjam, that’s just a hope.

If the majority vote for the WA but Parliament won’t pass it we’re back where we started. And if they vote for no deal -> mayhem.

Talkinpeece · 15/12/2018 17:31

Corbyn wants Brexit.
Ideally a hard Brexit so he can take over revolutionary control.
He is getting the Tories to do his dirty work.

Anybody who thinks Corbyn will lift a finger to keep the UK in the EU is kidding themselves.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 17:33

People talk about getting rid of May - it's Corbyn that needs to go

They both need to go to the Tower. I never want to see either of them again.