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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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MissMalice · 15/12/2018 13:09

The trouble will WA is that if public opinion has shifted more to remain then we will have left and lost all our current benefits presumably?

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 13:21

I have been a Parish Councillor and witnessed the wheedling and manipulation of people, even at that lowly level.
As a school governor there were other disruptive tactics used by some too.

The fact that there is not a significant majority in Westminster who will categorically support being in the EU should be worrying and the EU needs countries to pull together not sit at the back complaining.
MEPs need to be shouting about stuff that has been done that benefits all, it is not supposed to be about complaining that the French want more scallops.
While my comment about being nasty and vicious may seem a bit extreme, try having a word with people around the world who endured British rule and the way many of them were treated.

IrenetheQuaint · 15/12/2018 13:30

"The WA would give that opportunity for fresh thinking, but we need one tweak: to add that the UK could choose extended transition rather than have the backstop be activated."

I totally agree with this, but would the EU be open to agreeing it? I thought it was them, not the UK, who wanted to limit the transition extension to 2 years maximum (but happy to be corrected on this).

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 13:32

MissMalice If we decide to Rejoin during transition, the EU parliament said there could be a Fast-Track process.
Decent UK negotiators with a clear aim should manage to negotiate back the optouts we actually need.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/27/britain-could-have-fastrack-back-eu-brexit-says-european-parliament/

I would be glad to lose the optout to Working Time Directive, which is not really "voluntary" for many UK workers forced to sign.

The Euro is a meaningless promise as we wouldn't qualify and the EU has learned the hard way - Greece, Italy - not to force financially insecure countries into that
Sweden, with a very healthy economy, joined in 1994 with the commitment to join the Euro, still hasn't done so and is not likely to.

I expect there will be an outer ring of the EU in the coming years, which we would join, which would be less integrated than the EU core
probably the Nordic countries, Switzerland, some of the East European countries.

This has been discussed as a concept within the EU and iirc was offered to Cameron, but he demanded to be in the inner core, but without following the inner core rules.

Moussemoose · 15/12/2018 13:33

@EtVoilaBrexit I agree the similarities with the "stab in the back" myth are scarily similar.

If we stay the myth grows. If we leave the country is forced into the hands of extremists and populists.

It is a very troubling time.

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 13:35

I don't think it's in the interests of the EU to formally and pre-emptively extend the transition via the WA. Time pressure works in the EU's favour.

I also no longer think an extension of the A50 period is looking very credible. Firstly I am not sure that the political goodwill exists to do this (it would require unanimity), and secondly everyone now knows that there is an alternative (unilateral withdrawal of A50). If we really want another referendum - I still think it's a terrible idea - we can revoke A50 and have as many votes as we like. And why would you extend A50 to allow a GE when the opposition's Brexit policy is even more cakeist than the government's?

There is no reason for the EU to change anything about the WA, which is a perfectly good agreement from their point of view and is perfectly compatible with an EEA-type Brexit which would still, I think, be the EU's second preference (after remain).

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 13:37

Irene The EU suggested the 2 years more to help Leaver fears of permanent transition.
I'm ppretty sure they wouldn't mind longer, certainly if it would be the tweak to get the WA through.

For them, transition is OK : nearly all the benefits of the UK being a member, but without the ability to wreck things,
especially no MEPs acting as the core of the far right - which would be a much smaller group there, without the UK.

I'm sure the UK PM would always be invited to the European heads of govt meeting, just without a vote

EtVoilaBrexit · 15/12/2018 13:39

Decent UK negotiators with a clear aim should manage to negotiate back the optouts we actually need.

Nope I don't think it will be possible fir the uk to rejoin on the same terms OR with opt outs.
Of the uk wants to rejoin diringnthe WA, the EU will have all the cards in its hands. Why on earth would it agree to special terms when it doesnt have to (and the uk has proven to be unreliable and a pain in the arse)?

What is happening atm is the uk realising it has NO power as a country on its own. The days of the Empire are gone. It has lost the traction and the power it had 50~60 years ago.
it doesn't have cards to play that will give some exemptions.
The days of the special exemptions fir the uk are gone. And it's time to realise it.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 13:40

Misti I think the EU would like Brexit & transition finished asap,
but they want to avoid No Deal, which is a definite possibility

So imo they'd accept longer transition if this is the magic tweak that actually gets the WA passed
Currently it looks like failing by up to 400 votes !

EtVoilaBrexit · 15/12/2018 13:46

Agree with misti too.

As far as the eu is concerned, they have a very good result from the négociations. Why would they change that?

The uk has to make its mind up astonwhat it wants, otherwise, the clock will chose for it.
The problem is I doubt British politicians are able to stand back enough to finally see the whole picture. The political system is collapsing at the worst time ever for the uk.

EtVoilaBrexit · 15/12/2018 13:50

BCF the uk has much more to loose than the EU. It's not the one that is going to blink first.
And that's why it is not possible to rely on the EU wanting this or that in the hope they will soften their stance and somehow 'help' the UK
And that's wo the fact to help the uk, they need to know what the uk wants and how they might be able to help (cue no one knows because the uk hasn't decided what it wants)

jasjas1973 · 15/12/2018 13:53

I don't think a PV will heal anything, whoever wins means the other side will still be pissed off, unlike BCF, i'm going the other way and think it could make matters even worse!

Perhaps what is needed is to stay but negotiate a new FOM policy, one that will satisfy Leavers, even if that means we lose some of our freedoms to work around Europe, some in Brussels have said this could be done.

We also need to do a Macron and find billions to fund far more investment into poorer areas, scrap UC & increase apprenticeships focusing again on deprived areas, proper 2 or 3 year training schemes, with employers encouraged to employ/train them on decent wages, via tax breaks?

HS2 could provide the money by going for slightly slower trains, if its too costly to scrap.

LadyTy · 15/12/2018 13:54

What is the best way of avoiding No Deal now? I want to write to my (Labour) MP again but I don't know what to say except 'Please don't let the country go over a cliff' Sad

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 14:03

We also need to do a Macron and find billions to fund far more investment into poorer areas,

This sounds like a good diversion strategy to me. Cancel Brexit, pump huge amounts into restoring schools, healthcare, education, social support, youth groups. Stuff that actually heals a broken society.

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 14:12

Although I am being accused of being harsh and 'anti British' if the UK were to remain I think it should lose many of the opt outs and rebates simply to 'force' the UK to take the position seriously. If it wants to be a 'grown up' it needs to do so with both hands. With proper political leadership it could be done, although I am not sure either Tories or labour are really up to the challenge.
Although some of the UK resources are depleted if it put it's mind to it in a COLLABORATIVE way it can and should be at the 'top table' but it truly has to want to be there and play it's part. A positive vote significantly above 70% to remain would be a start.
I bet the UK's position annoys the hell out of some countries that do not have the resources or skills that have less than ideal relations with Brussels. Most simply can't compete on an equal level but it needs a greater overview of the whole of the EU to reduce tensions.
In an off the wall sort of way, as people tend to like warmer weather when they get old so as a simplistic idea, retirees from the cold and wet Northern countries could be encouraged to emigrate to the south of Spain/Greece etc. This would be beneficial in a global warming sense in that you won't have to heat houses and care homes to 25 Centigrade. Provide fast easy trains/public transport to allow them to pop back to the north or family to visit them in the south and it could possibly be an overall winner.
It was interesting to see that some of the 'demands' from the Yellow Vests are quite nuanced in that they want environmental improvements and the like, rather spoiled by those extremists who have set fire to so much.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 14:13

Keith @ keithology
As if @BorderIrish didn't have enough to worry about these days, Cadbury have only gone and moved it.

Sal Brinton @salbrinton
Don’t think Orkney & the Shetlands will be happy either....

Robert Fotheringhay @ bervieboy
Plus the isle of Skye which now appears to have joined the mainland

IaIn Rae @ iainarae
Moved the Scottish border down to Bamburgh too. Cheers!

French Polishing @french_polisher
They’ve given us (Wales) a bit of England too 😂

Richard Swinford @ RichSwinford
It looks like they've nicked the bit of Wales East of Wrexham though (Bangor on Dee, etc).

Is this the map MPs have been using?

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 14:16

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
Cabinet minister David Mundell wants to extend Article 50, meaning the U.K. wouldn’t actually leave on March 29, The Times reveals today

He believes the U.K. won’t be ready to leave by then

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1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 14:30

As far as I can gather Mr Macron is in fairly deep shit too.
He is pushing reforms far too hard and fast and is failing to take the rather conservative public with him. I have not read his manifesto but some of what he is trying is a good idea but for example the yellow vest protests, originating in the thousands of tiny villages spread across a huge area of France, against the fuel price increases. Travelling 10 miles or more to the nearest shopping areas hits the pocket hard. That tax plan only fits the urban areas where public transport is good. The old french stereotype of a butcher, baker and veg shop in every little village is gone sadly. My minds eye was to take a 1km walk into the village to get fresh croissants for breakfast and groceries for the day has failed.

Talkinpeece · 15/12/2018 15:12

I cannot decide if I am more scared or fed up with the whole thing.
Brexit is a cancer flowing around the bloodstream of the UK

Mrsr8 · 15/12/2018 15:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 15:22

I really don’t think PV is a good idea.

People are only considering it out of desperation as we’re in chaos. Never a good reason to do anything. Dire straights does not make referendums a legitimate or sane form of governance. And the consequences of a no deal result are unthinkable.

Anyway I object to again excluding the U.K. expats and tax paying EU citizens here when they weren’t excluded from the Scottish referendum. Brexiteers will obstruct inclusion because they know it would impact the result.

I’d much rather see:

  1. Labour + SNP + LD + DUP declare no confidence.
  2. national unity government formed of Con, Lab, LD, SNP
  3. Revoke Article 50
  4. General Election

Government doing what government is there to do - take charge of the flipping country.

If parties want to include a referendum in their manifesto so be it, but they must have a legitimate (ie likely to be accepted) plan.

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 15:35

LeClerc I'd have more sympathy with the gilets jaunes but every time you see a yellow jacket on display in a car round here it's a large vehicle being driven by a lone male. Fuel prices are not much higher than 10 years ago (lower in real terms I would think). The difference is that no one drives small cars any more.

More violence in Toulouse (my nearest city) today, I am heartily fucked off with them. It's the smaller businesses who will suffer from this, as people stay at home and buy stuff on amazon instead.

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2018 15:39

I fear a no confidence motion in the government would be followed by a GE where the tories somehow managed to get a majority and then it would be hard brexit all the way.
Having them crippled and unable to move forward without cross parliament support is the best place to have them - even if circumstances are beyond dire.
Giving them the opportunity to strengthen their hand is the most irresponsible move JC could make right now. Having done nothing for two years, the last thing he should be thinking of is bringing about something that will change parliamentary arithmetic when it is not guaranteed to go in his favour. And I do not believe JC can win a GE.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 15:54

Article 50 should be revoked before a GE.

While I believe in principle the EU may agree to a short term extension for a particular end - they’re not going to do so for unlimited interminable political wrangling that produces no result.

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 15:58

Mistigri
I agree that the original concept of the GJ has been taken out of context. Around me it is still just the old folk, of which I am one! just showing support. Some probably just can't be bothered to wedge it back into the glove box. I would not condone any violence or intimidation and I think it would serve the grass roots level to actually stop, on the basis that Mr Macron has heard the points to be made.
French mentality does seem to be different to English but I haven't got to the bottom of what it is though but there was an interesting piece in the Guardian a while back saying that the English and Americans are striving for something they may never quite get to, but the French are more content to 'be', meaning they make the most of now (the present). I suppose that is a bit like the Spanish 'Manjana'?

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