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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:44

sos I was against a 2nd ref until quite recently, because I hate the idea of making people vote again.

It only becomes a feasible option now, if the HoC cannot agree themselves what to do
Tory & Labour are both failing disgracefuly in their duty to the country, purting their party first

Politically, a PV would have to be accepted, because people would have voted on what is actually available,
not fantasy promises as in 2016.
It's not a legal matter, but just practical politics.

If the vote is WA, or even No Deal, that has to be accepted

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 11:44

Sostenueto The EU did indicate sometime ago that they would allow an extension for a PV . And recently said things which makes me think that is still the case today.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:45

I've read 24-26 weeks is the practical minimum time for a PV.
Whatever, it's definitely longer than we have, unless the EU agrees to extend.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 11:52

BigChoc I disagree with you that the EU will throw out the baby with the bathwater just because they are pissed off with the U.K. They will also want to avoid a no deal situation if possible ( without compromising their 4 freedoms) so if a PV is on the cards which could lead us to accepting Nays deal or remaining I have no doubt the EU will agree. Yes it messes up the European elections and will incur additional costs if we still choose to leave after the PV. Not sure if the EU would agree to no deal being an option mind you . They may hold the trump card on that, something I have not thought about before.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:53

2bees That's the EU Commission who've said several times they'd extend for a PV.

However, it's the 27 heads of govt who would have to agree unanimously
and I'm not sure if the Commission could actually persuade possible doubters at this late stage

They are all massively fed up with Brexit taking so much of their time and Britain has lost most of its good will & influence
(another reason why I'm against Revoke and then trying Brexit again)

imo, they'd agree if they thought the alternative would be an automatic No Deal,
but I'm worried that 1 or 2 countries - with little to lose from Brexit - might be awkward

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 11:53

Nays ? =May’s !

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 12:00

The EU SHOULD not extend. The UK have taken the pi$$ for long enough. They know the rules, they even helped write the rules and have been unpleasant and discourteous about negotiations for 2 years.
The UK is not an injured bird that needs cosseting and nursing back to health, it is a nasty and viscous country that is seeking to destroy things it can't control. The UK needs to face up to it's past misdeeds and move on, something that in many ways Germany has largely succeeded in.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 12:02

Big Choc I am not against revoking and staying in!
They are all massively fed up with Brexit taking so much of their time and Britain has lost most of its good will & influence

Yes but I would be the grown up political thing to get over those feelings

but I'm worried that 1 or 2 countries - with little to lose from Brexit - might be awkward

Those with little to lose are also presumably not so invested as regards preparation so no good reason for them to be quite so pissed off as say France, Ireland, Germany or Netherlands hwho have so much more to lose.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 12:05

No 1tisILeClerc not the UK but this present government.

Your views on punishing all the U.K. do seem to be influenced by the fact you are an expat living in the EU

Gumpendorf · 15/12/2018 12:15

said it wouldn't be legal to put remain on whilst a Tory government was in situ. This government was voted in on a mandate to leave and they must be seen to carry that out unfortunately.

When did a manifesto become legally binding? It's just a wish list. A brochure designed to attract voters to 'choose me'.

I think this was Geoffrey Cox to John McDonnell about the Labour manifesto committing Labour to Brexit so it followed Cox argues that Labour had to vote for May's deal. It was pure political spin from a govt who are in a very tight spot and will do anything to stay in power.

If a political manifesto had any legal force you could sue for false representation. It isn't and you can't.

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 12:19

The EU is not punishing the UK, It is the UK government punishing the UK.
While I do now live in Europe 17 million Brits voted to make my life harder and take away my rights. Why should I feel at all sympathetic to them. I have spent 48 years visiting many parts of the world for holidays or work, the only ones actively making my life worse are Brits and they don't even have the decency to make their bloody minds up as to what they want.

Quietrebel · 15/12/2018 12:20

Fuming right now: heard Hans Olaf Henkel on LBC blame the French for Brexit and peddling brexiteer myths. He was quite perversely in fact advocating remain to destroy the EU from within. What I find unacceptable from LBC (can't remember who was the host) is the failure to mention his affiliation with ultra right (dare I say fascist) AfD! Now uninformed callers might be thrown by such venom from a German politician (who are normally quite measured). I have a mind to complain to LBC.

OlennasWimple · 15/12/2018 12:20

PMK - thanks for yet another thread, Red

Hazardswan · 15/12/2018 12:26

I've said it before but the best apology for bad behaviour is to just stop the bad behaviour. We've served as a warning to other EU countries - frexit ideas no longer seem a thing for example. There is no que for other countries to leave as Leave (aka Nigel Farage) claimed there would be. A piece of humble pie for the UK in the form of international embarrassment that non EU countries have commented on. Our growth is the lowest since world war II i think? Even if we revoked today there has been and there is consequences for the this Gov's appalling behaviour.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 12:30

Again you are wrongly saying UK and Brits when you mean this government and leavers respectively.

I really dislike you saying it is a nasty and viscous country that is seeking to destroy things it can't control.

No I don’t mind you calling our minority government which depends on a small party of eejits and has some of its own besides that

but not

Those who voted remain
Leave voters who have changed their minds ( can’t blame them given the disinformation)
Those who never got a vote in the first place.

I know you are pissed off with you situation and may have not got a vote in the first place but there are a lot of us living here similarly pissed off who may be living under a no deal situation soon that none of those listed above want but may be forced to live under. So back off

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 12:33

2bees It's probable, but not a foregone conclusion, that the EU would agree to an extension.

Leclerc, like many UK expats, has probably picked up on the anger some of the EU public are feeling, after all the insults from the UK, all the time-wasting
... and the billions spent already on planning for Brexit

That anger percolates through to politicians, any of whom might make political capital out of saying that the UK doesn't deserve any more time

It only takes 1 country to veto.

A few small countries have been gaining from Brexit, not losing and they stand to gain more.

Other countries are perfectly capable of reading the suggestions in the UK to Revoke and wreck the EU from within,
either as an aim in itself, or to try to force a new Brexit that would damage the EU SM and its prosperity.

We could even see a country, say Hungary or Italy, demanding their own concessions from the EU Commission first.

SusanWalker · 15/12/2018 12:35

It was pointed out on the remainiacs website that one of the reasons MPs aren't keen on a PV is that they are afraid. Last time we had a ref on Europe one of them was shot dead in the street. They get constant messages of abuse and death threats - Anna Soubry had to have police protection at one point. I'm not saying it's right but it's understandable.

But if we do have a PV the remain camp needs to hire the ad company who did the brexit trolling HSBC ads.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 15/12/2018 12:37

Well if we end up with asking for an extension for a PV and the EU do say no I do hope that TM at that point has the good sense to revoke rather than the default no deal that would happpen.

SusanWalker · 15/12/2018 12:37

Not website, podcast.

Mrsr8 · 15/12/2018 12:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EtVoilaBrexit · 15/12/2018 12:53

Latest speech from Sir Ian Rogers
news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/

Really really worth a read. A really nice explanation as why we are where we are and why things have gone tits up.

One thing that did stand out for me was that comment
So the narrative has be of “Betrayal” by a remainer elite who sabotaged the “no deal” plans. It is the emerging British equivalent of the Dolchstosslegende – the stab in the back myth – which, post Versailles, the German military – Hindenburg and others – propagated to blame the Weimar civilian elite for having betrayed a supposedly undefeated army.

Whatever the ‘solution’ that will be found, it is essential not to recreate a situation where the U.K. as a whole will decide that everything is the EU fault and that hey are just an innocent been bullied by it. This would be having the door wide open to extremism’s, in particular the far right. And seen how much strength they have gained in the last few years, they really don’t need to be given more fuel.
Atm BOTH sides are getting more and more extreme in their views (actually also very visible in this thread too). BOTH sides are getting more aggressive. And BOTH sides will get extremely ressentful if they end up feeling ‘left out’.

I’m really really not sure that a PV is the night answer to that. I don’t think it will heal the huge cracks in the british society. I think it will make them worse, regardless of the outcome of the vote.

In some ways, the dices have thrown already (as in two years ago when TM triggered the A50). What we need now is to start to get on with deciding what the future will be for the U.K. not just sounds bites about ‘Brexit means brexit’ or ‘there will never be anything better than being in the EU’. But we need people with a bit of creativity to define the future in a different way, one that will work for most people. Not just one half of them.

Hazardswan · 15/12/2018 12:59

I don't think it'll heal the huge cracks in British society.

Yup agree. I think the cracks are from the ye'old days of British culture. Leaving the EU will make it worse because we're stuck with us and us alone. Interesting link will go have a read.

SusanWalker · 15/12/2018 13:01

That's the point i think. Soubry is calling for a PV and has had to have police protection. Other MPs look at that, then probably look at their kids and think it might be better not to put their head above the parapet.

But I think the mood towards a PV is changing as it looks as if it will be the only way for us to get out of this deadlock. And a lot more MPs are now talking about it.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 13:02

It’s just all backwards.

We cannot find a solution that will satisfy the people if we do not understand why they voted to leave.

Without that, I fear we are doomed down the “betrayal” path.

This certainly isn’t going to go away any time soon.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 13:03

The WA would give that opportunity for fresh thinking, but we need one tweak:

to add that the UK could choose extended transition rather than have the backstop be activated.

That would stop the UK being under excessive time pressure and trapped in the backstop, if negotiations go slowly.
Most trade deals take 5-15 years, so the current transition period looks unrealistic to me.

I'm sure the EU would approve, because they are quite happy to avoid disruption and both sides would benefit if EU trade, travel & agencies continue as currently.

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