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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:57

The different rules for NI would of course be after transition and depending on what kind of deal was negotiated in that time

Ith the backstop, Canada++ looks only possible with significantly more checks on goods going from GB to NI

howabout · 15/12/2018 10:59

DUP oppose the WA because of the Backstop. So in theory if the CU/SM was nailed down to remove the Backstop they no longer would. However atm both Labour and Conservative won't admit that CU/SM is the only way to get rid of Backstop permanence and it is fairly transparent that this is why the EU are insisting on it.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/12/2018 11:04

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 11:07

BCF
I was taking a much wider view that in 3-4 years the possibility of unification of Ireland MIGHT be being talked about and showing signs of promise, similarly that trade patterns might stabilise into something that could be looked upon in a different light.

I am also seeing a 'entitlist' view by many on this thread that assumes that the EU should give anything to the UK at all. Looking at the discussions on here so far I think you need to taker either neutral or certainly more 'EU' view, especially is you are really wanting to remain. This is why my original 'Remain' vote has now been downgraded to 'leave but stay friends' as there is insufficient sign that the UK actually wants to roll it's sleeves up and join in properly as one of the EU team without being the shouty 'entitled' one at the top. Even the use of English as the 'universal language' is supporting this view.

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:09

I think there is a legal protocol regarding the ballot paper options. They cannot put remain on it unless there is a new government. Because this government cannot get a deal that Parliament can decide on they can only resolve how we leave as they have a result of leave from the referendum. They can only ask the people in another one how to leave. But another government can overturn the original referendum and ask leave or remain. If there is another vote don't take it for granted remain will win.

howabout · 15/12/2018 11:14

That's certainly what I thought when I read it Mother Grin
You wouldn't need to talk to many Tory voting Scots to know this would be political suicide for Struth and co. The calculation is always pocket book 1st, Union 2nd, EU 3rd if it demonstrably bolsters 1 and 2.

I see we agree on Backstop also.

1tisleClerc I see we also almost agree. My reasoning for pushing Revoke, even as a Leaver, is that it is now demonstrably the case that the UK will not be fully joining up any time soon and might even be able to engineer more distance from within out of convenience for EU27.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/12/2018 11:14

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

howabout · 15/12/2018 11:16

Agree Sostenutto - that is why Labour need to keep pushing for GE rather than splitting themselves in 2 in the same way Conservatives have.

Moussemoose · 15/12/2018 11:17

One Parliament can't be held by a decision of a previous parliament.

If this parliament passes legislation then they can do what they want in regards to a referendum.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 11:17

Eveything should start with the SM

If we had sane politicians it would. But there is always the possibility of May or Corbyn refusing the SM.

The plan, which was described to me as a BCU with preferential agreements (but is in effect an FTA-CU hybrid), was originally discussed to resolve the problem of the NI border.

The NI border needs either: Remain; or SM + CU which didn’t exist at the time; or a CU with additional agreements that reproduces the SM - as per the NI agreement - ‘full alignment’ with the rules of the SM + CU.

You can either do that in the SM or fully aligned with it.

Now that Barnier has offered SM + CU, it’s all a bit moot. However it still has relevance if Corbyn ended up PM and wanted the CU but not full membership of the SM.

But I agree that any of the these options would need considerably more time.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 11:18

To BCF ^^

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:21

I think it was at the end of last week that a law person, ( sorry can't remember name) said it wouldn't be legal to put remain on whilst a Tory government was in situ. This government was voted in on a mandate to leave and they must be seen to carry that out unfortunately. But if a new government a new political party came in with no mandate to leave these they can stop brexit. Trouble is I no more want Corbyn in than I want to leave with no deal so its a damn mess really.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:22

The 2016 referendum was non-binding, so Parliament could LEGALLY have ignored it, or May could now Revoke

Of course politically either would bring a lot of grief for MPs and parties
which is why they are dithering.

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:24

Its not corbyn that worries me as I am still deep in my heart labour voter it McDonnell that frightens me!

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:25

The people won't like a revoke bigchoc maybe may might be worried by that.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:26

sos I doubt if that was a lawyer you heard - unless he was being deliberately misleading
he may have been talking about politics not law

Manifesto commitments are certainly not binding - governments break them all the time
The referendum was non-binding, but even if a referendum were binding, Parliament can always vote to abolish the previous bills it passed

That is why the EU is so insistent on a legally binding backstop - which the UK would have to withdraw from the treaty to break.

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:29

Wish they had ignored referendum 2 years ago then if it was legal to do soSad

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:31

I gather that the RoI / EU would still require a backstop even if the UK signed up to a new SM+CU option, with totally frictionless trade - hence with FOM and ECJ etc

because the Uk could withdraw from that treaty - or any other

Any deal would need a backstop.
However, that kind of deal would mean the backstop would never be activated - so long as the UK didn't withdraw

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:33

How will may get another referendum done before march bigchoc? Can Parliament if they ever get a chance to vote on mays deal which we know won't get through can Parliament then stop or extend the date of brexit so another referendum can be held?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:33

I certainly don't support a strategy to Revoke and then start planning to Brexit again

We need an end to this Brexit mess, not to start it all over again later

Better to sign the WA than that

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:37

sos The Uk can't extend A50 on its own, but it can request the EU for an extension
This would only be granted if all 27 countries agree unanimously

So, the EU would have to believe it was in their interests to do so

At this stage, I'm not 100% sure ALL of them would consider a Revoke to be that !
They may well prefer the WA, just to put an end to Brexit dithering

Sostenueto · 15/12/2018 11:37

Can we be certain a peoples vote will win for remain? If it does not what then?

colouringinpro · 15/12/2018 11:38

Joining at page 4!!!!

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 11:40

How will may get another referendum done before march bigchoc

She won’t according to this article in the Guardian today.

Minimum of 22 weeks for a referendum according to UCL assessment.

The calculation is that legislation would take 11 weeks: with eight weeks of question testing taking place at the same time; a week for transition between the legislation coming into force and the campaign; and then a 10-week campaign.

The People’s Vote campaign argue this could be condensed. But realistically I don’t think it can be done by March.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/15/how-would-a-second-brexit-referendum-work

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 11:40

So we’d need an extension just to hold a PV.