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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Hazardswan · 15/12/2018 10:07

Nice round up of the past month from the lib dems.

www.libdems.org.uk/8-brexit-ballsups?utm_campaign=1812_s_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=libdems

8 Brexit Bungles

A roundup of the mayhem, dithering and incompetence from the government and opposition over the past few weeks.

By Liberal Democrats, Dec 14, 2018 2:12

Loletta · 15/12/2018 10:08

umpteen Leave vs Remain really would be a blatant rerun and 2 questions, conditional on the first could be confusing.
This ^^

May's Deal is a form of Leave. We'd be out of the SM and no FOM. People need to be persuaded that it wouldn't be a betrayal of the first vote to offer a referendum with May's Leave Deal or Remain

Hazardswan · 15/12/2018 10:10

Chaos and Crisis

Brexit is a national embarrassment. The events of the last few weeks have proven that the government is in absolute chaos.
By Jo Swinson, Dec 14, 2018 5:12

Brexit is a national embarrassment

The Prime Minister pulled her Brexit vote; but if that wasn’t bad enough her MPs’ leadership challenge also spoke volumes: Conservative MPs can change their minds, but the British people cannot!

While the Liberal Democrats have been fighting for a final say on the Brexit Deal since day one, the Tory party have been putting party before country and refusing to give Parliament a say and refusing to give the people the final say.

The Liberal Democrats are the only national party fighting for you to have a final say.

What’s more, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party have been happy to sit on the sidelines and watch as the Conservative Government’s disastrous Brexit tears this country apart.

In Parliament and across the country, the Liberal Democrats are the only national party fighting for you to have a final say.

We are taking every opportunity to push for a people’s vote in Parliament. When the time comes, we need to be ready.

We are preparing for the next stage of our campaign.

www.libdems.org.uk/chaos-and-crisis?utm_campaign=1812_s_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=libdems

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 10:13

As a whole the EU has been very civilised about the negotiations so far although obviously there are 'tensions'.
The UK has ONLY 3 choices although if I am right in my thinking, the WA has sufficient leeway for the UK to be either more inward or outward looking during SUBSEQUENT negotiations. Therefore WA must be chosen in my mind as it is plainly obvious that the UK at political level does not want to be part of the EU. Business wise the cooperation and trade was excellent but the politicians have ballsed that up completely.
I think that the EU countries should start putting their future demands on the table so that the UK can get a flavour of what negotiations are to come. French and fishing, Spain and Gibraltar are obvious but I expect all will want their kilo of flesh now the UK has been harpooned.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:14

Excluding the Speaker & deputies and Sinn Fein, all of whom don't vote,
I think any option would need 316 votes

By my calcs, a cross-party deal could be from:

200 Tory MPs (say those who voted for May)
64+ Labour rebels
35 SNP
11 LDems
6 smaller parties

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 10:15

Even if a cross bench alliance (with labour rebels as JC definitely won't agree to it) hammered something out would it have any kind of majority in terms of Parliamentary arithmetic?

ERG would vote against. Loyal Labour would vote against. I've rather lost the plot in terms of how many that might add up to?

See my numbers above re PV.

May needs around 315 votes to get a majority (by the time you take out the Speaker etc etc)

In addition to my numbers above its worth considering that the ERG number is only around 80. The 117 who voted against May in the leadership contest include Remainers who don't back May's deal - but might back a PV or Norway or something else.

The 117 also include government ministers who can not vote against the government in a HoC without resigning their post.

Thus the 117 is less than it appears.

May might lose a few of the 200 who did back her, but there are also a few ERG types now saying they will get behind the PM too.

So that depends on how many in the hard core ERG are a problem.

May would still need cross party support but with 200 plus behind her, it's within grasping distance if she's smart. More so if Labour officially support the policy.

The problem is those ifs.

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1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 10:17

The WA is not a 'deal' it is a roadmap taking the UK to a currently undefined destination although it is written in crayon, 'Westminster' but there is an eraser available that can be used to change it to 'Brussels'.

Loletta · 15/12/2018 10:19

Even better:
May's Deal vs Revoke
On the ballot paper

Explain a new referendum is needed to break the impasse.
A new referendum needs to offer two choices that are both achievable and that won't destroy the UK.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:21

LeClerc I agree the WA allows the UK to choose a later relationship that has EEA+SM+ a CU / CA

In fact, it is difficult to see how any "hard" Brexit, like Canada ++, could be negotiated in transition,
because of the NI backstop - unless the Irish Sea checks are agreed.

This is why the ERG are so desperate to stop the WA - they don't think it could bring Canada++ in the form they want, without backstop
and it certainly stops the looting / hedgefund windfalls that some of them & their chums would enjoy after No Deal

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 10:22

Anyone still using plus signs attached to FTA or CU needs to go and read Ivan Rogers' speech here: ^news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/^

Trade experts often avoid the term FTA, because most trade deals aren't about "free" trade but about preferential trade. In many respects the only real "free trade" agreement anywhere in the world is the single market, and it only applies to goods (not services).

This was from an EU trade ‘expert’, I’m simply trying to put it into language that makes sense here.

It’s a CU that includes or replicates the SM. That’s all. So essentially the same as the Norway style EEA third pillar concept.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 10:22

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
Times exc

- How a gang of five in the cabinet are talking about whether to back a second referendum - if all options are exhausted next month

- Rudd, Gauke, Hammond, Clarke, Lidington

- No 10 also discussing, tho TM still hostile

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/035da2ca-ffed-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Brexit: Cabinet cabal ready to swing behind second referendum

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Grinchly · 15/12/2018 10:23
  • Many voters assume that if something would be catastrophic, then they wouldn't be allowed to vote for it, so they would believe - falsely - that No Deal couldn't be that bad*

This. This with knobs on. We are back to the issue we identified of LeAve / remain being not a right/ left but liberal/ authoritarian world view People WILL absolutely think that 'they' would not allow no deal on ballot if it was that bad.

I keep saying this to my friends ( mainly lefty liberal professionals) but they are reluctant to believe that people could be so ill informed. Many seem to live in a guardian reading bubble and it skews perception.

Mrsr8 · 15/12/2018 10:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

borntobequiet · 15/12/2018 10:26

If David Lidington and other Cabinet ministers are considering a second referendum there must be more to it than meets the eye.
My guess is that when Tory MPs were taking soundings from constituency parties before the vote that never happened (as we heard they were doing) they got some uncomfortable feedback, along the lines of “this is destroying the party”.
Solution: give it back to the people (again).

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 10:31

No FTA can deliver totally frictionless trade.
Only the SM can do that.

Indeed. You need CU + SM.

There is no point to the creation of a new option at this stage unless it gets us in the SM and saves our JIT businesses.

Hence why Barnier originally recommended SM+CU as Norway++

As I said it’s not a new option. It’s a different way of describing Norway++, which is not actually Norway at all because a) Norway doesnt want us and b) Norway is not in the CU. That’s how the concept was described before Barnier labelled it the Norway+ model.

TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 10:33

At the time the Norway + model didn’t exist in the EU (ie SM + CU). Everyone who is in both is actually in the EU.

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 10:38

BCF
I think the NI backstop may not ultimately be such an issue IF the WA is agreed as we all know the EU is up for a bit of fudge and 3 years or so into transition many things may have changed significantly, as it has already in the last 3.
What should be truly terrifying are those ultra ultra boneheads who have the notion that the UK 'destroying' the EU is a good idea, (supported by Daily Express readers who have no brain at all) and that UK will 'win' as it is special and rules the waves.
To deliberately cause some break up of the EU which could descend into war they would be looking for a scapegoat, that annoying island off the Northern coast of France. I am not a historian but surely Europe is well overdue another war and somebody will be picked on.

howabout · 15/12/2018 10:39

Decent explainer on how the mechanics of setting up a 2nd Referendum work. It needs primary legislation, a commission to agree the question and a campaign period. Therefore even with maximum goodwill and consensus the quickest timeframe would be end of May. Given this is long past the March leaving date it needs either Revoke (within UK's gift) or extension (needs EU27 agreement).

The question then becomes why would Labour give the Tories the opportunity to fix the Referendum for Deal/No Deal or even indeed give them the credit for rerun in favour of Remain when they could force GE and Revoke?

Otoh why would Conservatives risk splitting their own support further by being blamed for 2nd Ref?

Not really sure why DUP getting blamed for blocking WA? They have said they are happy with UK wide Customs Union as this disposes of Backstop issue? Not sure where they are on SM, but don't think they are opposed to regulatory alignment UK wide either?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/15/how-would-a-second-brexit-referendum-work?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The Parliamentary maths make it clear that if the DUP swap sides the Conservatives lose power. Everything else is just talk - for every Labour potential swapper there is a Conservative ERGer. If this were not the case then the Conservative Remainers / Deal accepters could compromise via 2nd Ref with Lib/Dem, SNP etc.

Hazardswan · 15/12/2018 10:39

Would need an extension to a50 mrs EU hypothetically would agree to extension for a PV with remain option. EU don't want no deal and can see how stuck TM is.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 10:41

But is there even time for a PV???

No there isn't.

It would require the EU to grant an extension.

There is danger in this; if the EU insist on a remain option. Or outright refuse an extension.

This might be politically unpalatable to the Tories OR there might be an attempt to split the Remain vote to get the hardest possible Brexit because if the EUs roll in making a PV happen.

If its dependant on the HoC setting the options I think you'd possibly avoid this being quite so politically toxic and there would be less of an attempt to split the Remain vote.

I personally struggle to see it being a three way ballot because of the political pitfall of being seen to deliberately split the vote on either side (leading to it being called a fix and possibly a boycott). But it's not impossible that it would still happen.

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 10:43

The DUP COULD back a PV. Nothing out there to say they wouldn't in theory.

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:43

Tatiana With Norway++, the "++" is useful shorthand for adding CU / CA to Nrway's SM, important extras like passporting

  • basically the probably 100 additional bilateral treaties wih the EU that the UK would need.

If it's good enough for Barnier ....

Eveything should start with the SM, because when we copy most of the SM rules into a CU, as the WA does, it is very cumbersome and still doesn't deliver the frictionless trade we need

  • there is much less to add on to an SM for this, compared to starting with a CU

Barnier switched recently from calling it Norway++ to saying that a 3rd EEA pillar could be an option,
obviously taking on board that Norway regard the UK as a potentially dangerous wrecker

That would be the only ssensible new option - if only we had another 2 years
Maybe just change the PD to this aim and make the transition period 5 years+

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:47

LeClerc I disagree about the NI backstop.
The EU will absolutely never fudge or weaken this
It may fudge or offer optouts for members, not for non-members

They seem prepared to say they are aiming for a deal so that the backstop is never activated
However, it would always have to be a backstop, in clear legal text, so the UK can't wriggle out of it 5 years - or 5 minutes - after Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:50

howabout The DUP opposes the WA
afaik, that is because there would be different rules for NI and checks between goods going from GB to NI

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:55

Remain would actually suit the DUP best of all.
If they ever realise this, they might well support a PV.

It's very surprising they ever got persuaded into Brexit, when any form of it was clearly going to have some special NI terms / backstop

Maybe they saw their chance to wreck the GFA - hadn't realised the EU would support Ireland so solidly
Or maybe it's their same old paranoia about the EU being a "Catholic" organisation
Or they just automatically sided with the hard right of the Tory party who are their only allies in GB

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