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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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TatianaLarina · 15/12/2018 09:25

they are microstates, with populations well under 100k and economies based on only 1-2 things.
Their treaties are most unlikely to work for a large complex economy like the UK with 65 million, so it would be creating a treaty nearly from scratch

The EU make exceptions for microstates, who are happy to follow EU rules and are only tiny % of the total EU economy.
The UK is currently the #2 or 3 economy in the EU and always demands optouts & exceptions

I’m aware of all of this and I made the same points to the EU trade bod I got the info from.

But it’s not a question of the size of the state in this case, simply the principle of how an FTA-CU++ functions which is the same as a SM + CU option, which is in itself an FTA-CU++.

But there’s no question it would take a long time to set up and there’s no way that’s possible before March.

FestiveForestieraNoel · 15/12/2018 09:26

Ha ha Bigchoc. Laughed out loud on the bus. Too true!

borntobequiet · 15/12/2018 09:29

Happily there are no conventions or protocols, as far as I’m aware, about what can be on the ballot in a referendum.
If polls are showing a big swing to Remain, say 60%, it’s unimaginable that any politician, however stupid, wouldn’t have it as an option.

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 09:31

Chuckling to myself at the idea of businesses having things in place for no deal.

I work for a FTSE 100 company which employs a zillion EU nationals working on what will become the wrong side of a hard border in the event of no-deal. As far as I can tell it hasn't addressed the employment law issues created by a no-deal Brexit (and you'd think I would know if there was a policy, as I am one of the employees concerned).

As for my colleagues in manufacturing, many of them are terrified about their jobs moving to Eastern Europe (though this won't happen in time for Brexit).

Impact of Brexit on inventory is huge, as we will start to see as companies begin to report their third and fourth quarter results in the new year.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 09:34

sos A referendum has several legally binding steps to organise, which take about 24 weeks minimum
There is not enough time before Brexit unless the EU member countries unanimously agree to an extension

The EU have said they would extend for a PV with Remain, but I'm not sure if they would if it's just
WA vs No Deal

Especially as polls show Remain beats both WA and No Deal,
whereas WA vs No Deal could easily produce a No Deal vote

Hence the HoC would demand Remain be on the ballot, maybe an STV with the 3 options:
Remain / WA / No Deal

or maybe they'd just decide that No Deal is too suicidal for the country to have as an option.

Many voters assume that if something would be catastrophic, then they wouldn't be allowed to vote for it,
so they would believe - falsely - that No Deal couldn't be that bad

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 09:39

But it’s not a question of the size of the state in this case, simply the principle of how an FTA-CU++ functions which is the same as a SM + CU option, which is in itself an FTA-CU++.

Anyone still using plus signs attached to FTA or CU needs to go and read Ivan Rogers' speech here: news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/

Trade experts often avoid the term FTA, because most trade deals aren't about "free" trade but about preferential trade. In many respects the only real "free trade" agreement anywhere in the world is the single market, and it only applies to goods (not services).

Mistigri · 15/12/2018 09:41

And even within the single market trade in goods is not completely free (resulting in for eg differences in taxation resulting in the smuggling of cigarettes from Belgium to the UK).

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 09:41

Remain cannot be put on a ballot paper in a second referendum because it was a losing side in the first. The choice would be mays deal or no deal. The only way remain could be put on a ballot paper is if there was a general election and the labour party won.

This is nonsense.

Whatever the HoC vote for can be on a ballot.

I do not believe there is a parliamentary majority for May's Deal v No Deal. This this will not be on any ballot.

That does leave options for a Norway style deal or something else instead of Remain but May's deal is so unpopular it will not get through the HoC and the HoC have already made it clear by voting for Grieve III that they want to block no deal in any way they can.

Alternatively there could be alternatives instead of no deal put on the ballot. For no deal to be on the ballot there has to be sufficient parliamentary support for the idea. And MPs are terrified of that.

Because of parliamentary numbers it's more likely that the ballot options would include remain than no deal. However I think it more likely to be something like May's deal v Norway.

The ERG would try to block this of course, but they lack the numbers.

Where the real problem lies with a PV is getting Labour to support the idea. And there is sufficient opposition within the party to block that. Labour would rather the ERG went on a suicide mission to get a GE.

And that's where parliamentary numbers on a PV fail. There can not be remain, no deal, May's deal or Norway on any ballot unless there is opposition support for one.

If May could get the 200 Tories who voted for her to back a PV she still is around 115 short. Add 35 SNP, 12 (11 + 1) LDs, 4 plaid and 1 green to that and you are still at 252 - 63 short.

So it'd need 63 Labour rebels to side with the government for a PV.

I think that's more than have rebelled against Corbyn on Brexit so far.

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Loletta · 15/12/2018 09:44

Remain cannot be put on a ballot paper in a second referendum because it was a losing side in the first. The choice would be mays deal or no deal.
I disagree. The negotiated deal (May's deal) vs Remain is an honest question to pose. It's not fantasy, it doesn't open up catastrophe as an outcome (although May's deal is worse than the status quo but how else do you get out of this mess?) and it really should have been the way the referendum was held in the first place (don't agree there should have been a referendum in the first place by the way): if you have to have a referendum on staying in or out of Europe make something realistic, that the other 27 countries have agreed to vs Remain.
HoC will pass WA if it's backed by referendum

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 09:47

Tatiana No FTA can deliver totally frictionless trade.
Only the SM can do that.

There is no point to the creation of a new option at this stage unless it gets us in the SM and saves our JIT businesses.

Hence why Barnier originally recommended SM+CU as Norway++
and more recently - after leading Norwegian politicians said they don't want the UK in EFTA -
recommended the uK be a 3rd pillar in the EEA

That would at least be quicker than trying to bolt all the bits that a highly complex economy of 65 million needs onto a deal for a microstate of 40-80k people.
Also, the WTO generally ignores exceptions for microstates; it won't for the UK

Note about time / effort:

Norway has a population of only 5 million, with a far less complex economy than the UK,
however,
it has not just the EEA / EFTA template, but also 50 bilateral Norway-EU treaties that are uniquely tailored to Norway.
These took years to negotiate

It's daunting enough to think to think of all the treaties that the UK would need on top of EEA,
without trying to convert a treaty intended for microstates

  • the first conversion we would need is to add SM ! - so much better to copy the EEA / EFTA treaty which has that already.
RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 09:48

In response to Mordaunt's leadership bid in the Tory graph we have Amber's in the Daily Mail

Amber Rudd @amberruddhr
Let’s stop Brexit getting stuck, back the deal we have or find an alternative to stop no deal.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6497881/Ignore-siren-voices-calling-rocks-No-Deal-AMBER-RUDD-Work-Pensions-Secretary.html
Ignore the siren voices calling us to the rocks of No Deal, writes AMBER RUDD, Work and Pensions Secretary

If MPs dig in against the Prime Minister’s deal and then hunker down in their different corners, none with a majority, the country will face serious trouble.

We will be on a path to something almost everybody agrees mustn’t happen: No deal with the European Union.

And

I support the PM’s deal, because it can deliver Brexit and allow us to move forward. But many of my colleagues aren’t yet persuaded. It’s possible enough will be – but they might not.

We need to acknowledge the risk that Parliament could spend the next precious few months debating about preferred solutions and end up with no compromise, no agreement and no deal.

So what’s to be done?

We need to try something different. Something that people do in the real world all the time, but which seems so alien in our political culture – to engage with others and be willing to forge a consensus.

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 09:50

red I remember 75 Labour rebels voted on one Brexit amendment, but I can't remember which it was !

umpteennamechanges · 15/12/2018 09:53

I don't really see why/how other deals can be added to the referendum (e.g. Norway or Norway+). We don't have anything negotiated with the EU other than the WA, putting another type of deal which we haven't discussed with the EU on the referendum is completely nonsensical IMO. What if it won?

Even assuming the EU extended and gave us this fantasy deal that doesn't exist it may not have a majority in Parliament and we'd be back to square one.

I believe the only sensible way forward given that there is no majority in Parliament for anything is a PV with two questions:

  1. Leave or Remain?
  1. If leave wins then WA or no deal?

I believe Remain would win, and if it didn't most remainers would choose WA on the second question rather than no deal crash out.

I don't think we can leave option off the table but the scenario above would work.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 09:56

Any new idea would need Labour support - or at least about 70 Labour rebels
AND
would need unanimous EU agreement for an extension

Ideally, a cross-bench alliance would first hammer out a firm proposal, not wishy-washy fantasies
and then the EU might well extend

  • they probably won't do so for just another 6 months of UK dithering and delusions

However, UK politicians seem to lack any ability to take decisions - not delusions - on Brexit
which means the default runs out to No Deal

umpteennamechanges · 15/12/2018 09:59

Honestly at this point I don't see the EU agreeing to extend for anything other than a GE or PV.

Anything else just smacks of the same dithering around which may (and probably will) lead to fuck all.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 09:59

umpteen Leave vs Remain really would be a blatant rerun
and 2 questions, conditional on the first could be confusing.

EIther just Remain vs WA, Remain vs No Deal, or one STV with all 3 options

OhYouBadBadKitten · 15/12/2018 09:59

Putting no deal to a PV would be a disaster.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 15/12/2018 10:00

though Remain v no deal actually seems logical, given that the WA won't get through parliament anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:01

Although the EU said they'd extend for a GE, this was before Corbyn was spouting so much fantasy bollocks

I'm not sure if they'd see any advantage to swapping May for Corbyn

They'll only agree to an extension at this late stage if they feel it is in their own interests
However, they might decide they need another few months prepping themselves for No Deal - so could extend just for that

umpteennamechanges · 15/12/2018 10:02

Even if a cross bench alliance (with labour rebels as JC definitely won't agree to it) hammered something out would it have any kind of majority in terms of Parliamentary arithmetic?

ERG would vote against. Loyal Labour would vote against. I've rather lost the plot in terms of how many that might add up to?

umpteennamechanges · 15/12/2018 10:03

However, they might decide they need another few months prepping themselves for No Deal - so could extend just for that

^ That's a good point

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 10:04

kitten If voters chose either Remain or a WA, the HoC would almost certainly approve

The HoC is currently paralysed, because it can't see how to avoid No Deal, but doesn't dare choose another option.

A PV takes away much of the responsibility from them

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 10:04

I think the BIG thing to remember is this:

There is a parliamentary majority which wish to block No Deal

This is good and reassuring. Unless Labour fuck this up and decide they are hell bent on a GE.

The ERG can kick and scream all they like. As long as May doesn't go for the fantasy of a managed no deal (this one is the next unicorn coming to piss us all off)

May could fuck this up, but I think she does want a resolution which isn't No Deal.

Which means it's ultimately Labour’s to screw it all for us.

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Apileofballyhoo · 15/12/2018 10:04

Corbyn has behaved very irresponsibly over Brexit, pressuring for an immediate A50 invocation
and talking complete bollocks / lies about renegotiation

Absolutely, BigChoc. A50 should never have triggered until masses of preparation had been done, no matter what kind of deal was being negotiated. Labour's job is to oppose. Normally I'm against people opposing just because they are the opposition (being Irish where the two main parties and Labour are broadly similar and oppose just for the sake of it although now one is holding up the other) but in this case triggering A50 was so wrong for everyone. Even if you are one of the crazies - it weakened Theresa May's bargaining position if you take the view that there is a better deal, as the EU know the UK is hopelessly underprepared for no deal. It strengthens the position of the crazies that want no deal as all they have to do is wait, and it makes Labour look just as bad as the Tory crazies for not pointing out that time would be against the UK once it was triggered. It makes them all look like utterly incompetent fools. No surprises there I suppose.

Apileofballyhoo · 15/12/2018 10:07

This is good and reassuring. Unless Labour fuck this up and decide they are hell bent on a GE.

I'm afraid this is exactly what Labour are up to.