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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 23:21

They have. But the EU could produce a comparable idea with the kind of CU+++ that San Marino has. It’s really an FTA-CU hybrid that reproduces the SM. (Yes I’m aware it’s tiddly but the principle is replicable for the U.K.) I should say Norway+ style - to indicate SM + CU.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 23:24

^so it would have to be a separate 3rd pillar to the EEA instead
copying the EFTA treaty, but just with UK as sole member^

Exactly.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 23:29

What we do NOT need at the moment is another month wasted on a GE

  • which would probably be either another hung Parliament or a small Tory majority

It would be most unlikely to be called before Christmas, so that means after 7 January when Parliament returns
Even with the minimum 17 working days required, this would take us into early February
So we'd have less than 2 months to take action that avoids No Deal

Even if Labour beat the odds & won, we'd still be in the same mess
but with a new PM and new ministers who'd have to start learning the ropes.

There is no time to invent a 3rd EEA pillar and Norway won't have us
So Labour would have the same 3 choices:
Remain / May's WA / no Deal

Corbyn is still talking bollocks about renegotiating a deal with his 6 conditions and no backstop - sucking up to the DUP ?
He has been a Brexiter all his political career
Right after the referendum, he called for A50 to be invoked immediately

The chaos of No Deal would give him the chance he needs, like the ERG.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/12/2018 23:33

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 23:34

Mother Adding ++ to the 3rd pillar would have worked well - if we'd started 2 years earlier
It means adding a comprehensive customs agreement, plus all the other things we need that Norway doesn't have in their deal:
farming, agriculture, passporting

However, we would still need a backstop, because the RoI & EU don't trust us not to renege on any future deal

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 23:37

mother The EU would extend if they think it in their interest

At this stage, I doubt if they would extend for a GE just in tne hope of having the same delusional bollocks from Corbyn as they've had from May.

It would be different if the leader were a remainer like Starmer, who seems to have some idea of how to negotiate sensibly

They probably would extend for a PV

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 23:42

The message from the summit, the plain talking from the EU and the body language that journalists have remarked on
all indicate the EU heads of govt have run out of patience with delusional British politicians claiming they can get cake and refusing to accept one of the available options.

The EU are not prepared to start negotiating from scratch
They just want to avoid a No Deal now

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 23:48

Corbyn is not pro SM he’s pro cake and eat it. His little Brexit deal manifesto in the Guardian was dismal. Benefits of SM without the rules.

There is no time to invent a 3rd EEA pillar and Norway won't have us

It wouldn’t be an invention as it already exists for San Marino, Andorra etc, as I said the principle is a CU-FTA hybrid that reproduces SM conditions.

However, it’s true there’s no time to adapt it for the U.K., it nor is there time for the U.K. move onto it.

But the EU are aware they may have to extend for a GE and may end up renegotiating with Corbyn much as they can’t face it. He may be persuadable to SM + CU and even Remain if there’s enough pressure, so it’s in their interest.

MissMalice · 15/12/2018 00:12

the principle is a CU-FTA hybrid that reproduces SM conditions

This would presumably be seen as a betrayal of a true Brexit by Leavers.

CaraCarbonara · 15/12/2018 00:35

.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 00:36

I'm aware of San Marino & Andorra, but only as a possible option for NI

They are microstates, with populations well under 100k and economies based on only 1-2 things.
Their treaties are most unlikely to work for a large complex economy like the UK with 65 million, so it would be creating a treaty nearly from scratch

The EU make exceptions for microstates, who are happy to follow EU rules and are only tiny % of the total EU economy.
The UK is currently the #2 or 3 economy in the EU and always demands optouts & exceptions

Also, the WTO may not allow the UK to have the privileges and exemptions that they allow a microstate

  • they might require the EU to change its rules.
BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 00:42

All these complicated solutions might have been feasible to at least scope out 2 years ago.

However, now is too late, imo

The UK economy & business can't wait a year or more in limbo
and the EU too just wants the UK to choose from the existing options Remain or WA and get on with it.

Corbyn has behaved very irresponsibly over Brexit, pressuring for an immediate A50 invocation
and talking complete bollocks / lies about renegotiation

He is NOT to be trusted

mathanxiety · 15/12/2018 03:43

Quick place mat.

lonelyplanetmum · 15/12/2018 06:10

Apologies if Article posted before. If Scottish Tories see a second ref as the only solution that will shift the balance surely. Really odd as it effectively unites with the SNP viewpoint as they also said they may support a PV on the proviso that if it ended up the same as 2016 it would have to lead to a second indyref?

"When I look at what’s going on down south, [!!!!] I feel appalled and embarrassed,” one prominent Conservative MSP tells me. “I hate the English party. I’m horrified at the support for no deal being expressed by party members. I’ve stopped reading ConservativeHome.”

"I understand that they will back any measure that prevents no deal, and could publicly express support for a second referendum – if May’s deal can’t pass parliament – as early as next week. I’m told both Davidson and her stand-in Jackson Carlaw are signed up to this position. “No deal would be disastrous and jeopardise the union so we will reluctantly have to go back to the country and ask them,” says a source.
"The Scottish Tories would potentially favour a two-question referendum, along the lines of 1) Do you want to leave the European Union or remain on existing terms?, and 2) If you want to leave should we do so on the basis of the deal that has been agreed or leave without a deal?"

"There is tremendous anger that the party at Holyrood has been placed in this position, for a number of reasons. One is that support for a second EU referendum will make it much harder to argue against a second independence referendum in a few years’ time. “We would have to accept if there is a pro-indy majority after the 2021 [Holyrood] election there will be a second referendum,” says a source. On the upside, this would allow Davidson to frame the campaign as a binary choice between more constitutional disruption from the SNP or allowing the new UK settlement to bed down with the Conservatives"

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/scottish-tories-are-preparing-back-second-brexit-referendum#amp

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:33

Your Saturday Morning WTF

Lewis Goodall @ lewis_goodall
Kate Hoey: “we didnt spend 30 years suffering IRA killings of soldiers and civilians in Northern Ireland to see a United Ireland imposed by a few jumped up EU bureaucrats and a complicit prime minister.”

Patrick Kielty @ PatricKielty
She’s right. We didn’t. We’ve spent 20 years building peace in Northern Ireland. Then seen a United Ireland become more possible thanks to a few jumped up Brexiteers who say they’re actually Unionists. You couldn’t make it up (so they do instead)

Steve Peers @ stevepeers
One of the most dishonest, inflammatory arguments uttered by any UK politician about Northern Ireland in decades.

And for anyone in doubt about the far left / far right alliance

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
25 seconds in to this clip, Jacob Rees Mogg compares Leave activists to the Communist Party of China

See for yourself...
t.co/cpmCtJlFPg

Just remember the human rights abuses in China against citizens and you'll have a pretty good vision of Brexit in Mogg's eyes...

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
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frumpety · 15/12/2018 07:34

I do wonder what % of public opinion shifting to remain , removes TM's mandate for Brexit ?

If I were her I would remove the NDA's at 2359 on the 31st let the knowledge loose, allow it to marinate in the public domain for a week, before returning to Parliament on the 7th.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:35

Here is the Times saying May's deal is dead...

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:40

Simon Hix @ simonjhix
My Brexit fear today:
- parliamentary gridlock leads to a second referendum
- the only thing parliament can agree on is a May’s Deal vs No Deal choice
- Remainers campaign to boycott the vote
^- No Deal wins, because the hooligans are mobilised, but on the back of a

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:42

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
Former minister Jo Johnson calls on Theresa May to put her deal to a Commons vote next week. Says he believes No10 is “running down the clock” so only choice for MPs is PM’s deal or no deal Brexit. #r4today

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:44

Alex Wickham @alexwickham
NEW: Theresa May’s close allies are pushing for a second referendum to win a mandate for her Brexit deal, face down a “suicide squad” of Brexiteers and keep Jeremy Corbyn out of Number 10

No10's main fear now is that Corbyn calls a confidence vote and hardcore Brexiteers abstain to take her out. 20 plus "suicide squad" MPs are seriously talking about abstaining. They think a new Brexiteer PM could be found in 14 days.

Some of May's closest supporters think a second referendum is the only way through. They think offering a people's vote would convince Labour remainers not to oppose her in a confidence vote

David Lidington keen on second referendum plan. Those in favour say it could be the only way to secure a mandate for her Brexit deal, arguing that voters would prefer May's deal to remaining in the EU because it ends free movement

The cabinet is being urged to force May to quit. Ministers think the PM's promises to the 1922 on Wednesday are fantasy. They fear she is trying to shut off other options and could lead the Tories into a snap election v Corbyn.

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/theresa-mays-allies-second-referendum-brexiteer-suicide?__twitter_impression=true
Theresa May’s Allies Are Pushing For A Second Referendum To Crush A Brexiteer “Suicide Squad”
The PM comes home from Brussels to find hardcore Brexiteers threatening to bring down her government, cabinet ministers being urged to oust her, and members of her top team preparing for a “people’s vote”.

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:46

Itv news @ itvnews
Cabinet ministers reportedly reluctantly considering prospect of new referendum to settle Brexit deadlock after PM's Brussels showdown
www.itv.com/news/2018-12-15/theresa-may-pushes-on-with-brexit-agenda-after-tough-eu-summit/
Cabinet 'contemplating second referendum' after Theresa May's Brussels showdown leaves Brexit deal stricken

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:48

George Eaton @georgeeaton
The Scottish Tories are preparing to back a second Brexit referendum and may even declare independence from the UK Conservatives - must-read piece by @ChrisDeerin.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/scottish-tories-are-preparing-back-second-brexit-referendum?amp&__twitter_impression=true
The Scottish Tories are preparing to back a second Brexit referendum

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Metoometoometoometoo · 15/12/2018 07:49

PMK

What an amazing thread this is, answering so many of my questions. Thanks RTB and others. Incredibly useful.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:53

And from the other side

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-myth-of-the-brexit-cliff-edge/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
The myth of the Brexit cliff edge

In fact, the closer we get to March 29 next year without securing a deal, the less of a problem it becomes. By the middle of February, it may hardly matter at all. Why? Because British businesses will have made their preparations, and, just as crucially, European ones won’t have. The net result? The pressure on us will evaporate.

This is categorically NOT what I'm hearing on the grapevine...

And it shouldn't be forgotten that British companies prep means leaving the UK and setting up as European companies.

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RedToothBrush · 15/12/2018 07:54

And fgs Blair stfu!!!

Even if you have a point, it's not helping!

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