Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Talkinpeece · 14/12/2018 21:47

I'm in fits of laughter now

I quote Marx that the proles should not be allowed to vote
and got deleted

SNOWFLAKE

IrenetheQuaint · 14/12/2018 21:57

Absolute LOL at being deleted for quoting Marx's reference to peasants

IT'S POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 21:59

Blimey, I've posted a lot more inflammatory quotes than that !

Talkinpeece · 14/12/2018 22:00

Jaywick is full of people that Marx considered unfit to vote

stick that up your labour pipe and smoke it

BackInTime · 14/12/2018 22:01

This can't be said loudly or often enough at the moment:

"Most people in Northern Ireland support the backstop"

I have just had to explain this to a group of colleagues who said they ‘felt sorry for NI because they don’t want the backstop’. It is the DUP that do not want the backstop. The DUP do not represent the views of the majority of people in NI who voted to remain and who above all want to keep peace and the GFA.

tinnedtomatoes30 · 14/12/2018 22:04

So Westminstenders mumsnet.
Friday night quiz.

How many people do you think a no deal brexit will cause the death of?
1m
2m
or 5m?

prettybird · 14/12/2018 22:06

I knew what you meant Talkinpeece - I've recently re-read Marx's Communist Manifesto (ds was doing his first History essay at Uni on how useful it was in explaining the October Bolshevik Revolution and asked me to help him with the essay plan and then later to comment on his 1st draft; I'd read it before when I was studying Russian at Uni and had to do a module on Russian history) and that is precisely what he said.

I found it quite scary re-reading it: you could see that McDonnell and Corbyn truly are unreconstructed Marxists. They want the chaos and the proletariat to revolt under their more educated Hmm "guidance".

Quietrebel · 14/12/2018 22:15

There's also a difference between lack of formal education and wilful ignorance. I think if anyone was to be excluded from a vote it should be bigoted idiots who wear ignorance as a badge of honour. That has nothing to do with class.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 22:19

Typical view from German broadsheets: (my summary translation)

Der Zeit is generally centrist in German politics and is the highest circulation weekly newspaper here.

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2018-12/eu-gipfel-theresa-may-brexit-verhandlungen

  • The British govt has done everything wrong during the negotiations that it is possible to do wrong

  • It's made the EU more united over these negotiations than on almost any other issue before

  • Brexit supporters claimed several other countries would follow Britain out of the EU, but in fact it killed any support in those countries for leaving.

  • For the British PM and her country, Brexit is an endless nightmare

  • These negotiations have a good chance of being prominant in a future book of statecraft:
    as an example of how to lead a country unerringly into a debacle

Talkinpeece · 14/12/2018 22:22

Democracy is shit
till you consider the alternatives

representative democracies are designed to keep decisions away from the great unwashed

and Marxism did not include any input from serfs

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 22:23

These negotiations have a good chance of being prominant in a future book of statecraft: as an example of how to lead a country unerringly into a debacle

Great innit. It’s one of Baldrick’s cunning plans in action.

Moussemoose · 14/12/2018 22:30

I keep on saying this.

Both extremes - left and right - want Brexit as it will help produce a pre revolutionary environment.

Turmoil is good for extremists.

jasjas1973 · 14/12/2018 22:35

Sorry, i fundamentally disagree with that.

We don't live in some 1900s peasant state! with a despotic royalty to over throw!

Brexit is pure and simple about our obsession with empire and our inflated opinion about ourselves e.g. see how we behave at every single World Cup... despite the evidence to the contrary, we are going to win it, even composing Pop songs to aid our belief!

prettybird · 14/12/2018 22:50

I agree with you about the motivations of the ultra-right Brexiters like the ERG jasjas - but I do believe that the lack of opposition from elements of the Labour Party (in particular its leadership Hmm) is because of their Marxist ideology Sad

Motheroffourdragons · 14/12/2018 22:52

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 22:53

On the one hand I want Labour to hold off until they can win a no confidence vote, on the other - the way to avoid a Norway deal or Tory run referendum with risky options and more government lies would be to force an election ASAP.

Surely it must have dawned on Arlene by now that the backstop is staying. If they’re going to withdraw support I wish they’d hurry up. Labour need to nab them before the Tories offer Norway.

The SAS have a rule apparently, that if you’re trying to escape don’t pass up an opportunity in the hope of a more favourable one, it may never come.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 22:56

-but I do believe that the lack of opposition from elements of the Labour Party (in particular its leadership hmm) is because of their Marxist ideology

For sure. Comrade Corbyn is waiting to usher a brave new world of 70s style communism.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 22:59

But I don't agree that a PV is the worst way forward - I think we are now at an impasse - May cannot get anything (as expected) from the EU , so there is no chance of her WA getting through parliament - but obviously there are people who support that.

Her only options really are resigning after a defeated vote, Norway or PV.

DD is clearly bent on pushing no deal to the wire believing he’ll gain major concessions from the EU. Lulz. We’ll have to see if she’s that stupid.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/12/2018 23:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

jasjas1973 · 14/12/2018 23:06

I don't know enough about JC's core beliefs however, Labours policies (they are a democratic party, so he simply cannot do as he likes) are slightly left of center, indeed, pretty tame compared to Labours policies in the 50s, 60s and 70s and middle of road in a european perspective.

The danger for the UK is the far right policies of the Tories, very similar to AFD, FN, this seems to be ignored by the media, they bleat on about the far right in europe, yet ignore that the Tories are going/gone far further than FN etc.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 23:08

I can’t see May doing that, which is why I didn’t include it. If it came from her it would only be last minute, humliliated panic.

It would be a complete admission of defeat and incompetence.

She will try to save face for the Tories before it comes to that.

MissMalice · 14/12/2018 23:09

How is Norway an option? Norway have said no way and EU have said stop asking.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/12/2018 23:13

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 23:15

Norway / EFTA dont want us now - we are too toxic.
so it would have to be a separate 3rd pillar to the EEA instead
copying the EFTA treaty, but just with UK as sole member

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 23:20

Sorry talk but it didnt read how you meant it. You werent deleted for quoting Marx alone... but thanks for calling me a snowflake first time for everything Grin