Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

[bellinisurge]

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

I don’t think that’s correct. It’s about more than the IRA @Weetabixandshreddies**

I didn't say it was about the IRA.

Other posters said it. Read their post

Just wait. Wait until a country defaults on their lian and then can't vote until they pay it back...or don't conform in some other way

If you join a club you follow the rules.

That’s not a dictatorship.

The same would apply to adopting WTO rules. If we didn’t follow the trading rules, we couldn’t participate.

Is that a dictatorship

Unless you think all members could do what the hell they liked, reap all the benefits without following the mutually agreed rules........ if they don’t like the rules, get out. But you can’t have the benefits.

That’s the Leave conundrum. The UK cannot have its cake and eat it. It’s not just about the GFA, it’s about the UK trying to get the benefits without being a member.

The likes of Farage and Rees Mogg want a hard Brexit because they don’t like the rules.

Now, why would two rich men who got rich by trading etc want that to happen 🤔🤔🤔

Because the rules bind them and protect the majority. They aren’t the majority - they’re the minority rich.

That for me is reason enough to stay in the EU.

This isn’t about sovereignty. You never did answer how we lose sovereignty. You did notice that all of our UK laws aren’t required to be approved by EU parliament, right....?

"17 million people voted to leave. They were sending a message. Something has gone very wrong for them. Maybe politicians should have paid more attention to what they were saying."
I agree on that. I had hope you would be one of the people to disprove the notion that Leave voters were naive and ignorant. Pity.

@Weetabixandshreddies

More deflection. Where did I say you shouldn't be allowed to vote? Where did I say anything about voting criteria?

I didn't.

You're desperately trying to move on from what you said about the Swiss border. Why?

You confidently made an assertion about the Swiss border and how they had a frictionless solution.

You were wrong.

You refuse to acknowledge it.

Instead you complained that it's not you job to sort it (the implication being that it doesn't it matter if you go around spreading misinformation).

Well, it does matter.

I'll state one final time: you are entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your vote. I completely support both of those rights.

But, why can't you acknowledge that you were wrong about the Swiss border instead of shifting your opinion from one thing to another?

A minute ago there was no border problem. Now there is, but it's because we're being held to ransom by terrorists.

It can't be both. You can't hold two contradictory opinions and expect people not to call you on it.

bellinisurge

Sorry to disappoint. Maybe it should be a criteria to vote
don't disappoint bellinisurge

If you join a club you follow the rules.

Yes you do. And in most clubs you can simply leave if you don't want to stay - apart from this one where they pull you in so deep that it's virtually impossible to leave.

Look back in history - the more powerful dominate the least powerful. Money is power. Who has money in the EU and who doesn't?

@Weetabixandshreddies

Unless you are being obtuse? its fairly obviously what will happen if we fail to solve the NI border issue as we Brexit.

We risk a return to the "Troubles" is that what you want?

As to being held to ransom by terrorists? not really, uk voted to leave, uk must solve this problem, if it cannot, then it must remain.

We cannot have our soldiers & Police killed because a minority of the electorate failed to consider the consequence of their actions.

You confidently made an assertion about the Swiss border and how they had a frictionless solution.

No I didn't say they have a frictionless border. I said I had travelled back and forth many times. It has never been manned. If it isn't manned how do they control what passes? There must be some element of trust or turning a blind eye. They have developed a solution that works there. So, develop a solution for Ireland.

A minute ago there was no border problem. Now there is, but it's because we're being held to ransom by terrorists

Not my argument about being held to ransom by terrorists. I was replying to a poster who said that we have to solve it or face a return of the IRA. I didn't say it.

Weetabix
Why is the WTO fine when the EU is not?

As to being held to ransom by terrorists? not really, uk voted to leave, uk must solve this problem, if it cannot, then it must remain.

We cannot have our soldiers & Police killed because a minority of the electorate failed to consider the consequence of their actions.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. We shouldn't have to change our behaviour because of terrorism. We don't change behaviours elsewhere because of the threat of terrorism. We need to work to find a solution but our government has to do what it considers the best for the country, not to appease the IRA.

And it might have been a minority of the electorate(?) but it was the majority of those that did vote.

It isn’t difficult to leave.

It is difficult to leave and get many of the same benefits as before.

That’s the conundrum.

You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Of course it’s a complicated relationship. Just how simple did you think a collaboration with numerous other countries would be

It’s not about the EU holding us to ransom. It’s about politicians realising that they will be crucified by leave voters who think it’s simple (clue, it isn’t) and remain voters who don’t want this (for good reasons).

You still haven’t answered my question about sovereignty

@Weetabixandshreddies

The Swiss are Schengen, as are the neighboring countries, is that a workable solution ? lol!

Why is the WTO fine when the EU is not?

The EU was bearable as a trading block. It has grown to be far more than that.

I don't agree with it. Go back to it being a common market but that isn't a choice.

Of course it’s a complicated relationship. Just how simple did you think a collaboration with numerous other countries would be hmm

Exactly - who voted for that?

We shouldn't have to change our behaviour because of terrorism. We don't change behaviours elsewhere because of the threat of terrorism. We need to work to find a solution but our government has to do what it considers the best for the country, not to appease the IRA

We signed up to an internationally binding treaty, as i said, if a solution cannot be found, then we need to abort.

To me the only solution (based on Mays Red lines) other than remain, is Irish unification but of course that isn't up to the UK.

You still haven’t answered my question about sovereignty smile

What is your question?

Exactly - who voted for that

?

You make no sense now. It’s complicated because it has to be your it’s very nature. It couldn’t have ever been simple. Ridiculous.

It is what is is now. Getting out is complicated.

Complicated isn’t inherently bad.

What sovereignty have we lost by being in the EU and what are you expecting to take back.

"Why weren't We The People consulted on PQRS aspect of the EU in the past? Outrageous therefore Brexit so We The People can be Heard!!!"

"OK, so what is your view on XYZ of Brexit going forward?"

"No idea, it's somebody else's problem, the lovely delicate brains of The People mustn't be bothered with grubby boring details."

Exactly - who voted for that?

Do you know why the EU was established in the first place?

It is what is is now. Getting out is complicated.
Yes but no one asked us if we wanted to get so involved, to give the EU this power, and clearly a lot of people don't want it.

It's the first time we have been asked. It isn't the fault of the people if politicians have undemocratically signed us up for something.

What sovereignty have we lost by being in the EU and what are you expecting to take back.

We are not free to ignore the EU. Some laws that they make we have to adopt.

They've also made it clear that the European Court supercedes domestic courts so yes, we have list sovereignty

TheElementsSong
And your solution? Sign everything over to the EU? Let's give up now.

@Weetabixandshreddies

No. You first claimed that it was frictionless:

"Quite why the EU has such a problem with goods entering the EU via the UK/Irish border though I don't know. Where's the border between Switzerland and France to stop goods entering that way or at other boarders across Europe? They have either chosen to ignore or found solutions for that so why not NI/Eire?"

You may not have used the word frictionless, but you certainly described a frictionless border in this quote.

You were challenged on that, and only then you offered your personal experience of driving across the border (which was proven irrelevant).

You did claim that goods aren't stopped, and you did say it was an example that could solve the Irish border problem.

You were wrong on both counts.

Not my argument about being held to ransom by terrorists.

If that quote was from someone else then fair enough. I read it on your post, so thought it was you. Apologies if I misquoted you on that.

How do you think WTO disputes are resolved? In the British courts?

We are not free to ignore the EU. Some laws that they make we have to adopt
Dems the rules of the club!

They've also made it clear that the European Court supercedes domestic courts so yes, we have list sovereignty

Only in certain areas - the common areas we accept as being part of the club.

Being part of the club brings benefits. So of course there are rules we are bound by.

But in most matters, the UK parliament sets the law.

So, which areas of lost sovereignty are you most concerned with...

We risk a return to the "Troubles" is that what you want?

I have yet to meet a Leave voter who gives a single shiny shit about the peace in NI so I expect the answer to that is 'don't care'.