Second Referendum

[Neweternal]

Ok I don't understand I knew it was a risk leaving and it may initially make us poorer but for many reasons thinking 20 years on I felt it is the right thing for the country to leave the EU.

Second referendum if it transpires I will vote the same way. Yes Brexit is hard but you don't give up something because it's difficult. I have a chum who has shifted from remain to Brexit which surprised me.

What happens when and if the second referendum is again leave? To remainers accept we KNEW it wasn't going to be easy but we want sovereignty and not tied to the EU.

There was a bit of arrogance prior to the referendum with IN almost thinking they had it in the bag, same thing now!

I don't really understand your problem. Most laws are a collaborative effort. E an if we leave the EU we will have to take into account our trade partners (if we can find any) and "allies". We are never going to be working in a vacuum, are we?

@Talkinpeece No deal! I would vote for no deal, risky but better long term.

Of course we will, and in doing so we gain something of value. Abiding by the shared rules of NATO for example affords us collective security and more security than we can achieve on our own.

in doing so we gain something of value.
Just like we do as members of the EU.

@jasjas1973 I would accept the vote no deal or remain. I will vote for no deal and cross my fingers the British public is brave too.

I would cross my fingers that only the insane or suicidal would actually choose no deal.

Dare I say it - we have actually proposed some EU laws.

this is a useful summary.
"In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%."
And this despite being represented on the fisheries committee by Farage who is so concerned about the issue that he only troubled himself to attend one out of 42 meetings.

You will be happy if we set the standards. At one time London had standards about buildings needing to be fireproof, regulations initially starting with Sir Christopher Wren and subsequently amended. BTW This has alway been part of the remit of National Governments. So we can continue to set our own standards and stand back and see people burn to death unecessarily. At one time, we expected better from our Governments.

What I’d like to see, before another vote is even considered, is a pro-leave figure produce an actual meaningful written plan for doing this, rather than simply complaining about the flaws in the current plan.

All I’ve seen from Mogg etc, are attempts to refute the complexity and risks of the scenario they desire. What I haven’t seen is a practical plan from them.

Until we have actual concrete facts to base a vote on, I can’t really see the point. It’d just end up being another referendum run on feelings.

The thread title sums up some of the problems. It should be 'new referendum'. It is not a re-run, or one in a series, it's a new one based on new information on what leaving will look like. The word 'second' will immediately make people reference the 'first' which most people accept was a flawed question, but some do not and will vote the same.

@neweternal

If you the no deal result you wanted, and people did end up without medication they needed to stay alive, what would you say if confronted with those people? It’s for the best?

Genuinely curious, not trying to belittle your opinion, and I’m not saying it would definitely happen.

I don't understand the sovereignty angle. The UK was one of the few EU members that could veto rules it didn't want. We didn't have to accept anything and we were in an almost unique position with that. The reason we have a lot of EU rules is because they were good rules! Working time directive, good safety, toys being safe, standards which kept trade open...

I'm against any referendum that has No Deal as an option. Judging by some of the petulant posts on here and the similarly childish and ignorant posts on my local community FB page, plenty of people are just about stupid enough to vote for No Deal.
See, I didn't slag off all Leave voters. just the numpties who want No Deal.

I understand the BSI thing, harmonisation means these are moved across to EN ones, however, the benefit is that safety equipment that a holiday maker might use abroad, say a cycle helmet or a fire door in a hotel, will be the same as one used in the UK.
Otherwise we ve 28 different ones! and of course helps uk manufacturers sell into a single market easily.

How about addressing the loss of security databases we have access to, which keeps us all safe? or the Galileo project?

@jm90914 Other countries survive not being in the EU. I really don't want to be part of the EU, surely even Remainers can see the EU is going down the toilet. Huge youth unemployment in Spain and Greece. Yes I'm quite sick of low skilled labour coming here working but on huge tax credits, housing benefits then a strain on GP surgeries, school, roads. I want immigration, skilled and not to come here to claim in work benefits. It drives down the prices for businesses like myself although I can see the benefits of cheap labour, it's greedy and wrong. Importing cheap labour is not in the country's long term interest. I am prepared to be poorer and make sacrifices for the long term benefit of the country.

I assume you've seen the independent financial reports that show EU migrants contribute more financially than they take and are just choosing to ignore them?

@greathat no it showed they were on tax credits. Immigration report you're talking about? Yes I have!

@Neweternal
Other countries survive not being in the EU

So we're now aiming at survival? Not economic success? NB - not all countries have the opportunity to be part of the EU and lots would choose it if they could.

I can see the benefits of cheap labour, it's greedy and wrong.
But EU workers make a greater contribution (and take less out) than British workers so why are you targeting them? If there is a strain on services, this is nothing to do with Eu workers and everything to do with government austerity cuts - which will get worse without the money brought in by EU workers and the EU membership. Why would you want things to get worse?

Importing cheap labour is not in the country's long term interest.
And this doesn't happen now - see above. Do you really think the EU NHS workers are cheap labour? Do you think if you block EU workers from the UK, the jobs are going to stay in the UK? Clue: they're not. Have you been following the news that Theresa May is looking to India for the workforce needed to fill the gaps?

@Neweternal make sure you go on every single thread in here where people are concerned about money and tell them that being poorer is a good thing. For the greater good.
Your lot can't hide behind bullshit forever.

Neweternal so you've seen the report that shows EU immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out but you don't believe it or don't understand it?

One possible adv of Brexit would be that it could force uk employers to train uk workers...
however, the plan is to have a points based system, by its very definition, will only allow in skilled workers, meaning we get to do the shit jobs or automation in many industries.

Low wages are the cause here, leaving the EU, as correctly acknowledge, will mean economic pain, lower profits, lower wages, less tax, more unemployment.

When you say economic pain, i take you mean your happy to lose your job, house, marriage etc etc for the Greater Good?

{I will vote for no deal and cross my fingers the British public is brave too.}
Jumping out of an aircraft without a parachute is both brave and stupid.
The 'Leave' campaign had presented NO plans for what happens after 29 March.You have voted for change, great, but which by definition means that the relationship between the UK and EU will not be the same. So what ARE you going to do?

{It drives down the prices for businesses like myself although I can see the benefits of cheap labour, it's greedy and wrong. Importing cheap labour is not in the country's long term interest.}
It's called Karma I believe. The UK has happily exploited 'cheap labour' in far flung parts of the world (after it moved on from near slavery in the UK that people could see). Leaving the EU and it's regulations heralds a race to the bottom for the UK as it will face increased tariffs to trade with anyone for at least 7 or 8 years and as most things that can be 'made in Britain' are already made elsewhere Price is one of only a few areas it could compete on. You will have to undercut the sweatshops of Bangladesh on some things like clothing, so that is undercut AND lower again to make up for increased tariffs.
The world is also entering a period of increased instability. Russia hassling the Ukraine, Trump and China is spats over trade wars, iSIS and other terror groups, although relatively contained at the present, haven't gone away so a 'little Britain' (with it's delusions of grandeur and superiority) stand a very good chance of being well and truly stuffed, which considering what the UK did to it's colonies in the past, will cause some degree of satisfaction in some places.

This is project fear. My shares have been fine since Brexit and my house has gone up 70k. I do not believe the world will end because we control immigration and make our own laws. We're a net contributor to the EU.

My shares have been fine since Brexit
You do know Brexit hasn't happened yet?

What about the other points raised? Are you happy for jobs to go to other foreign workers as is being planned? Why are you talking about "project fear" when people are giving you sound facts and figures and yet you are responding with vague ideas about controlling immigration (with no proof this will happen)?