Is there really a majority for ending freedom of movement?

[Figmentofmyimagination]

To me, the worst thing about Brexit is the removal of freedom of movement rights from UK workers, especially young workers. We've introduced the highest university fees in the western world, made housing inaccessible to anyone without access to the bank of mum and dad and now we are removing free movement rights.

What is driving this desire to limit the life chances of young people?

The "lack of checks and controls" is a choice. Your view might be that this is a negative. Other people think differently.

There are employment laws regarding minimum wages, working conditions, payment of tax, and housing laws regarding HMOs and landlord registration - all of which are claimed to be flouted to the advantage of immigrants and their employers and to the detriment of the local population. And there is the 3-month rule.

I don't want a police state, but it makes no sense to argue against the enforcement of the existing rules and in the same breath complain that the UK has become an open free-for-all that is being abused.

I find it interesting that people think we had any say in this at all and it wasn't all decided for us.

Until the eastern blocked joined open immigration was fine; as countries in the EU were similar and thus numbers in either direction were about equal. The eastern block ruined all that, few here are rushing to live and work in Lithuania, Romania! If open immigration is so great then let’s have an open door policy no checks with Nigeria/ Turkey?
Fact is because we can do so little about freedom of movement to the Uk from Europe we have decided to heavily penalise those from outside the EU- unfair!
With regards to the three month rule most illegal immigrants in the UK are over stayers, few smuggle across into the UK despite what the daily mail would have you think. We already struggle to remove over stayers, trying to implement the 3 month removal process would be extremely costly and just wouldn’t work.
In addition: c.50% of London’s homeless are eastern European —-wtf!

@Hesta54
Well maybe if the governments had tried harder then we wouldn’t be on the verge of Brexit, but neither Labour,conservatives, lib, have done anything about, because they weren’t listening to concerns of ordinary people and when challenged calls an elderly lady a bigot live on telly. I don’t mind staying in the EU, if something was done about FOM

We are almost in complete agreement. Successive governments have been failing the UK since at least 1970 and probably longer. Employers and unions have not been any better.

Re: if something was done about FOM - we probably disagree, but my preferred option would be that the UK actually uses the tools available (i.e. enforcement of the current rules) before moving to something more drastic and damaging.

FoM is not the basic problem in itself. It needs managing and at least some enforcing.
Conservatives are mostly about 'money' although BoJo's F* business is an interesting departure.
Labour, are about 70 years too late for anything and probably haven't noticed the pits have closed.
Others, might have a good idea but can't implement them as they are nowhere near in power.
My FiL would have no truck with 'foreign' food so DP had to refer to a mild chicken curry as 'spicy chicken'.

{ before moving to something more drastic and damaging.}
I think leaving the EU and continuing with Theresa May's 'hostile environment' should fulfill that job nicely.
With the closure of significant chunks of industry there will be plenty of unemployed just itching to pick fruit and veg. Shame about prosperity but you can't have everything.

Incidentally, this is what will happen to EU citz in the event of a no deal. Just been published..
twitter.com/Schroedinger99/status/1070644741757419520?s=19

1tisILeClerc This is what I don’t get, my mum and me and my brother, always used to go strawberry and raspberry picking at weekends and school holidays, mum didn’t work or part time and would be paid cash as she said more than a weeks wage for her, what has changed now that it’s only a Immigrants job( so called )
It’s the worst thing to be sick eattto many strawberries

Hesta, there are plenty of 'native people' trying to live and raise a family and pay a mortgage on zero-hours contracts. They're one of the groups of people who use food banks.

knowing how many people live in an area to inform the level of public service provision does not require that the government collects and retains extensive levels of personal data about those people

they already know it! want a hmrc account? you need a Gov Gateway ID... you get one of those via a passport or driving licence.. it is the bio-metric side that is expensive so to prevent fraud.

Governments know far more about you, held permanently then you'd ever think,
A single point of ID would avoid having to have passports, bank & utility bills to prove who you are.
Having to carry ID will help with crime and illegal working/migration.

^^And UK citz in the EU. It's bad.

Thanks GD12
Since I come under one of those categories the words 'complete and utter bastards' spring to mind.

GD12 Some of the things I agree with
it’s up to the EU to guarantee U.K. Citizens rights

You have made it abundantly clear that there is no conceivably acceptable reason anyone could have for voting leave so there's really not a lot of point in offering reasons so you can tell me am, as you suspected, a racist with no capacity for logical thought.

Far from it - two very valid reasons were to tell Cameron and Osborne that the country was sick of austerity, which as Bullingdon boys, neither would experience or understand. Secondly that people value the NHS - which the Tories are desperate to sell off to American pharma. In both cases the answer was, to be polite, 'tough'. So far we have heard May opine that austerity is over, but I haven't seen anything tangible to convince me that it is, and I don't see any real attempt to tackle the underinvestment in the NHS.

Funnily enough Belgium repatriates 1000s every year under the 3 month rule.
Trouble is the EU is constantly used as scapegoat for our own government ineptitude. Our government chose not to implement it simple as. Equally EU directives are not just imposed on us willy nilly, we can and have vetoed in the past but generally much discussion takes place before things get to that point and amendments can be made accordingly. There is also some variation in the way directives are implemented according to the individual nation 's culture and customs.

So, rather than the Gov stuffing £350 Million a week into the NHS, we have Liam Weazel trotting off to the USA to do some 'secret' trade deals.

it’s up to the EU to guarantee U.K. Citizens rights

The rights of Third Country (I.e non-EU) citizens are decided by each individual EU member country - because they are sovereign countries. Just as the UK has its own rules for non-EU immigration.

While in theory these rights could be included in the UK/EU negotiations the ultimate decision rests with the individual parliaments. The key issue is that EU countries don't want to be seen to be favouring/discriminating - so UK citizens cannot automatically expect better rights than people from say Brazil, China or Zambia.

I should have added neither reason had anything to do with the EU. Austerity could be ended tomorrow, money could be found for the NHS. Don't tell me there is no money, or no magic money tree -Trident and HS2 could be cancelled for a starter.

Hermanhessescat A grand total of 1700 WERE ASKED TO LEAVE in 2015, many stayed and others were fighting it through courts, not that easy is it

Exactly ! to do business with right wing neoliberal free trade obsessives.
Expect a bonfire of workers rights in the name of profitability, changes to health and safety regulations, food standards and environmental protection.
Sadly people voted leave to make our own government and mps more accountable and that's less likely to happen when huge us corporations get hold of us with little in the way of transparency !

Havanananana so UK citizens cannot automatically expect better rights than people from say Brazil, China or Zambia.
So EU citizens should expect the same unless it is agreed between them

Literally just finished talking to a very pleasant man who was delivering a courtesy car. He used to work in the NHS as a nursing assistant in a MH unit.

Very nice, chatty, caring man. He started talking about Teresa May and asked what I thought of her. He then said that he never votes but he did vote in the referendum.

He said he voted Leave to ‘close the borders’ because of all the Africans working in the NHS. Apparently they are lazy and uncaring, often falling asleep when they’re supposed to be watching people at risk, etc.

He voted leave because some Africans who work in the NHS are not managed effectively.

He seemed a genuinely nice guy.

🤷‍♀️

@Peregrina. You have rather beautifully undermined your own point about valid reasons to vote leave. Your second post where you state "neither reason had anything to do with the EU" is a beautiful refutation of the first. Brava (or Bravo) delete as appropriate

Talkstotrees There are funny people both sides of the argument

LouiseCollins28
Peregrina's point was that there is money available, austerity is being forced on the general public while stupid amounts of money are being spent on Trident (or replacement) HS2 (a train to nowhere) and others.
It is the gross mismanagement that is the issue. The pot is not infinite, so some choices need to be made but they tend to be for 'vanity' projects not the welfare of the UK citizens.