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Brexit

Westminstenders: Break it or make it.

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2018 11:43

We have a deal on the table. In reality it does not answer the question the result of the referendum posed: what type of deal do we want? The progress we have actually made in 2 years is to say, 'we want to leave' but nothing more. Or as its been termed: 'Blind Brexit' in which we exit but without knowing what comes next.

Even this is controversial. There are apparently some 88 Conservative back bench MPs (or half the Conservative back bench MPs) who are intending to vote against approving the deal. Some are remainers and some are hard leavers. Each side believing there is still everything to play for; whether that be no deal or no brexit. We are still as divided as ever.

The stumbling block, as ever, is largely the NI backstop. With many still arguing that it should be time limited. This fails to understand that the backstop is the GFA to all intents and purposes. And this is why Ireland and the EU will never agree to have a time limited backstop.

And once again we have this fundamental misunderstanding that the withdrawal agreement is anything more than merely the mechanism to leave, not the final deal, which is hampering all discussion of the subject.

There is talk that May will try to push the deal through and if she fails she will try for a second time. This might work, if this wasn't being anticipated. The trouble is the element of surprise is gone. This has now been denied by a No10 spokesperson. And has the possibility of a second referendum. Though the door on that, seems to be more open than less, with May's official declaration of a Blind Brexit. The whole effectiveness of a TARP style situation and a second vote on the deal in the HoC is the guilotine effect, where MPs look over the cliff and go 'shiiiiiitttt'. If the hope is alive for another way out for either the ERG or Remainers, then the plan is dead anyway. The a50 ECJ case is also still on; the latest government appeal to kill it was blocked.

Not only this, but there is the first tangable rumblings of discontent within the EU towards the deal. Spain has talked about voting the deal down. Whether this is anymore than talk, remains to be seen. Spain can not veto the deal at this stage anyway - but it might be able to cause trouble further down the line and thats the danger.

Meanwhile Labour are still promising unicorns and a total renegotition of the deal. This still focuses on the backstop.

Sunday's EU summit does still seem to be on though, despite Merkel suggesting that she wouldn't turn up.

And remember, as it stands, on 29th March we will leave the EU without a deal. The power to stop this lies with the Government and EU as far as we know at present, pending the outcome of the ECJ case.

May still has everything to do to make a deal happen and there are so many forces and people working to break it. We have still not made any real progress to Brexit, apart from get closer to it, through the mere ticking of the clock.

OP posts:
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lonelyplanetmum · 28/11/2018 09:34

The f.ing ref was the result of being swayed by the loons in the first place- all two dozen of them (according to their letter writing abilities.)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/11/2018 09:41

Johnny Mercer MP
‏*@JohnnyMercerUK*
The application of violence to defeat the enemies of the nation has become worryingly unpopular. Nothing wrong with fighting (yes killing) for values/what you believe in. The oppressed/bullied/tormented/voiceless deserve it. Join the fight; best thing you’ll ever do.

TatianaLarina · 28/11/2018 09:45

The f.ing ref was the result of being swayed by the loons in the first place- all two dozen of them

Yep. Not even sufficient to muster a vote of no confidence let alone a leadership challenge.

TatianaLarina · 28/11/2018 09:48

An ambassador friend of mine says ‘Boris was far & away the worst foreign secretary I’ve served under. Not stupid - I could have put up with that - but unashamedly lazy.’

Exactly what journalist colleagues have said about him - exceptionally lazy and happy to let other people run around and do the work he should have done.

Quietrebel · 28/11/2018 09:56

@painintheear

Seeing calls to violence, whichever side they're from is deeply worrying- is there a wider context to that quote?

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2018 09:58

Gove. I might dislike him but he has a work ethic. Same with Hunt. And May.

David Davis and Liam Fox on the other hand.

Interesting.

OP posts:
mostdays · 28/11/2018 10:06

you have to admire her tenacity

No, I really don't. There's nothing to admire in sticking with a terrible course regardless.

Quietrebel · 28/11/2018 10:10

There's tenacity and there's stubbornness.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2018 10:11

My criticism of Boris as Foreign Sec is that he showed he is not the lovable loon his fans think,
but a an evil narcissist,
who caused genuine harm to at least one vulnerable British citizen abroad, whom he was supposed to protect

His open racism & belief in British superiority also trashed our reputation with our friends

Just Trump with more brains

HesterThrale · 28/11/2018 10:19

”Not stupid - I could have put up with that - but unashamedly lazy.”

Why should we have to put up with someone stupid as Foreign Secretary? The job requires intellect, diplomacy, compassion, clear-headedness, values and ethics, and an ability to keep your mouth shut, and put others before your own ego.
Not sure how much of that Boris has.

For whatever reason TM appointed him, it turned out a disaster for the country.
I believe history won’t view him kindly.

DGRossetti · 28/11/2018 10:21

Just to say thanks Wine for thoughts for DW. You don't have MS for 30 years without getting some resilience - would take a lot more than name calling to get through.

But having never been called any names while not married to me for 13 years, and then - mysteriously after 2016, people only start noticing a foreign name.

The irony is, DS is working in an industry where "John Smith" would stand out a mile ....

UnnecessaryFennel · 28/11/2018 10:25

I read that Johnny Mercer tweet first thing this morning and thought WTF?? Most of the replies are along the same WTF lines, thank god. But what the hell is going on when our MPs think stuff like this is ok?

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2018 10:38

I can't even imagine what Johnny Mercer was thinking of 🤯

DarlingNikita · 28/11/2018 10:40

What is the context of the Johnny Mercer tweet?

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2018 10:41

We need the next 3-way SkyData poll, to compare how opinions have changed

So we'd have 2 polls from the same organisation, done the same way
I can't compare what we currently have

DM / Survation poll today:
43% Remain
44 % Total supporting the 2 forms of Brexit, WA & No Deal
13% Don't Know

SkyData poll on 15 November
54% Remain
46 % Total supporting the 2 forms of Brexit
Obviously they excluded the Don't Knows and recalculated

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-now-against-brexit-and-back-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-11555078

Westminstenders: Break it or make it.
Westminstenders: Break it or make it.
puttingthegenieback · 28/11/2018 10:55

From the Guardian. How is this even possible? Will this really fly, or what might happen next? Asking those of you who know much more than I do.

He [Phillip Hammond] confirmed that the government will not publish its full legal advice on the Brexit deal, even though the Commons passed a binding motion saying it must.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2018 11:06

and the probable cause of this whole clusterfuck:

real UK wages have never recovered from the 2008 crash
Great idea, have another crash to fix that

Italy's flirting with extremist parties has probably the same cause:

Marta Pilati@Marta_Pilati22 (European Policy Centre)

#italy real wages still below 2008 level, and no sign of getting better.
The only advanced country doing worse than that? The #UK.

Change in real wages for G20

Westminstenders: Break it or make it.
DGRossetti · 28/11/2018 11:08

He [Phillip Hammond] confirmed that the government will not publish its full legal advice on the Brexit deal, even though the Commons passed a binding motion saying it must.

Maybe we should take the same approaches to our taxes ?

BTW is this the same Phillip Hammond who's confirmed we'll be slightly worse of with this deal ?

Motheroffourdragons · 28/11/2018 11:21

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Emilyontmoor · 28/11/2018 11:33

who caused genuine harm to at least one vulnerable British citizen abroad Make that at least two. The UAE would have never progressed the case against Durham academic Matthew Hedges if they had had the appropriate high level assurances from the foreign office that he was not a member of MI6 in July. It wasn’t just that these were not given but also that both Durham University and his wife were concerned not to make the case too high profile in case Boris blundered in and made it worse again. Shown by the speed with which the UAE released him when they did come under pressure but a bad taste remains with the UAE that the U.K. could have easily avoided showing them up internationally (not that there is not a case for showing them up but not at the expense of six months of a British citizens life)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/11/2018 11:40

Sorry, just seen the request for context! He was discussing the army

Johnny Mercer MP
‏**@JohnnyMercerUK**
In Blackpool tonight. Met a young lad on the train up here, who said he wanted to join up but didn’t think the British Army was worth joining any more... I showed him this. Still the best experience any young person can have. Miss the people, and the job.

[video here: twitter.com/JohnnyMercerUK/status/1066769192186204165 ]

Greg Colton
‏*@colton*_gregoryj
More Greg Colton Retweeted Johnny Mercer MP
An Army veteran, who is now an MP, using social media that emphasises the true nature of the Army (the application of violence to defeat the nation’s enemies) to connect with ordinary people. This is the best example I’ve seen deomstating Clausewitz’s trinity in the 21st Century.

Johnny Mercer MP
‏**@JohnnyMercerUK**
More Johnny Mercer MP Retweeted Greg Colton
The application of violence to defeat the enemies of the nation has become worryingly unpopular. Nothing wrong with fighting (yes killing) for values/what you believe in. The oppressed/bullied/tormented/voiceless deserve it. Join the fight; best thing you’ll ever do.

prettybird · 28/11/2018 11:46

In context , Mercer's tweet is not so bad.

However, I am glad that ds shares our view has already formed the view that the army is not the sort of career that he has any inclination to pursue.

Tanith · 28/11/2018 11:47

“I will be voting Lib Dem I think, in any GE in the near future”

I can’t vote LibDem while they are promoting the aggressive Trans Rights narrative.
They finished it for me when they accepted Aimee Challenor as a LibDem following the scandal that led to her resignation from the Greens.
A party that thinks it acceptable to alienate half the population by referring to them as “non-men” doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.

DarlingNikita · 28/11/2018 11:48

Thanks, Pain. Nice man isn't he Hmm

DGRossetti · 28/11/2018 11:59

Oh, we roll on. Best revenge is a good life etc etc Grin

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