A little quiz for leavers mainly, but anyone may answer

[PrincessMargaret]

If you voted leave, please answer at least three of these, it must include #6.

1. Can you name a bad EU law?
2. What will you do outside the EU that you couldn't do inside the EU?
3. How will WTO tariffs keep us competitive?
4. How will border controls keep our lorries moving?
5. Why would any Multinational stay in the UK with tariffs, mountains of “country of origin” paperwork, and border hold ups?
6. How can you solve the Northern Ireland problem?
7. The EU citizen Hostile Environment. We now have twice as many NON EU immigrants coming to the UK to work than EU, how is that better?
8. Under WTO rules any one of 163 countries can hold a trade deal up for years, is that taking back control?
9. Trade deals take 8 years on average, what do we do in the meantime?
10. Where do you get your information from, ever thought there may be a hidden agenda?

Very interested to see the responses.

Some of the points that catherine raised are valid, some not so much (or not at all), i.e. on the border on the island of Ireland:

Neither side is going to impose a hard border whether there is an agreement or not and in any case, the problem of moving goods can be solved by technology. The EU commissioned a report which told them this but they didn't act on it because they wanted to use the border as a bargaining chip.

This is just spin and nonsense. Smart Border 2.0 proposed ideas to reduce friction but would never provide frictionless trade. It also required border infrastructure, which both Houses rejected by including the Patten amendment to to the EU Withdrawal Bill (no new “physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls”).

Suella Fernandes, in the DExEu at the time, rejected Smart Borders 2.0, saying: “Our unwavering commitment is to not introduce any physical infrastructure at the border. We have explicitly ruled that out. The report is interesting, but it does not go all the way.”

So no, not the EU dismissing it and wanting to use Ireland as a bargaining chip.

mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/brexit/europe/uk-backs-away-from-tech-solutions-touted-in-irish-border-report

The government are saying this deal is what people who voted leave wanted, that this deal is what was meant by leaving in the referendum vote. All leavers are responsible for this deal because it is what they wanted when they voted leave.

Interestingly, MP James Brokenshire refused to answer the question posed to him this morning, asking if the deal will mean the UK will be better off than staying with its current deal, cant for the life of me imagine why ?

My biggest concern about the fact that most leavers (Catherine honourably excepted) will not articulate what they expect from Brexit
is that
when they do not get what they want
they will get even angrier
with each other any anybody else

@bbclaurak
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Lost count of number times PM has said 'what the British people want' in the last ten mins

Let me be absolutely clear, even though the number of people wanting to remain now outstrips those wanting to leave, I am going to continue with this charade because not doing so would destroy my party, couldn't give a flying fig about anyone else.

OP- your questions are all academic now. The only hope of avoiding hard Brexit is TM’s proposed deal, flawed though it is. The country is still deeply divided, and no proposed solution would satisfy all sides.

Passions run high on both sides as we can see on this board. Amongst the general public this is forgivable...we have been deliberately whipped into a frenzy by our politicians and press.

However the behaviour of our politicians is unforgivable. We elect them to represent the country’s best interests. At this point in time, accepting the deal is in the country’s best interest. If it is voted down in the commons we will leave with no deal. Accidentally.

No deal is absolutely the worst outcome. Those arguing otherwise are just plain wrong. It is an act of economic self harm and it’s repercussions will fall most heavily on our children. Those politicians arguing otherwise are wrong. Either they know this and are therefore deliberately lying or they are so incompetent that they cannot understand the raft of evidence that points to this. Either way they are not fit to govern

I don’t particulary want to leave the EU. However right now my biggest fear is that our set of sub-standard politicians will vote it down in the commons. They will do this mostly because it will not completely satisfy their entrenched positions - but then on such a divisive subject it never would. If they scupper the deal, the result will be a no deal Brexit and it will be awful.

If this is the outcome, it will not be the fault of those voters who voted Brexit, nor those who opted for remain. It will be the fault of the politicians who even now are threatening to vote down the deal or oust the PM or force an election. All of which will result in hard Brexit. We will have squabbled our way through 2 years and achieved nothing. No reasonably intelligent person could believe that a different PM or a general election would make a difference 4 months from the deadline. It would be a shouting match then accidental no deal Brexit. Unforgivable

Trouble is most of the HoC know this but many will still vote the deal down. If this results in defeat, it is those politicians who will be responsible. They must put their differences aside and have the maturity to accept aspects of the deal that they don’t like for the good of the country. I don’t think they are up to it, and I hold those currently rabble rousing against the deal in utter contempt.

If the bill is defeated in the commons and we are therefore pushed into hard Brexit, it will be clear who is to blame for that - every politician from whichever party and for whichever reason who votes the deal down. We have the possibility to leave in an orderly fashion, albeit with an imperfect deal. The EU have accepted it. The final hurdle is the HoC. If they defeat the PM’s proposal they will have put their own partisan interests above the good of the country and scuppered our chances for an orderly exit. Hard Brexit would be their fault and the electorate is aware of this and would not forgive them.

TL:DR. We are 4 months from leaving and although the deal is imperfect it is our best chance to avoid hard Brexit. Politicians must recognise this and be adult enough to accept the compromise to avoid throwing us off the no deal cliff. If they cannot do this, they and they alone will be responsible for the resultant hard Brexit.

The EU is like an abusive partner in a marriage, a bully. A taker always wanting more, look at France wants the fishing rights, Spain wants the Rock. Wonder what else will crawl out of the woodwork now each of the 27 gets a say..
NO deal... I am hoping and praying for it.

Pretty dreadful to call the EU an abusive partner. I sincerely hope you don't know what the reality of domestic abuse is to say such a silly thing so casually.

Awful thing to say- and false.

Also ignoring the stark reality that we had joint decision making powers whilst part of the EU.Hardly an indicator of abuse.

Why is it domestic abuse to jointly agree basic holiday rights and pay , equal pay for women, non discrimination on grounds of age or disability, maternity leave, environmental standards and food safety for all? This was all collegiate, consensual and for the benefit of those in society with less power. Hardly the strategy of abuse.

Do you honestly believe all those benefits will go once we leave the EU?

I’m sure I’m wrong - but didn’t our unions back in the 70’s / 80’s fight for many of our workers rights?
I was getting holiday & sickness pay back in 1981.

Did the Labour Party & our unions achieve nothing on their own?

It would appear that mummmy2017 either has a lot of money in the bank and is financially secure for the next 20 years or is severely mistaken.
The EU is a rules based organisation, as it needs to be with so many members. In the past the UK has benefited from some of these rules.
If you want to see a bully in action, read the news from yesterday about Russia blockading, ramming and firing on Ukrainian ships.
Now consider the fact that Russia is constantly provoking the UK and other European counties by sending it's fighter jets, just into 'our' airspace.
Would you prefer to be part of the EU which has a mandate to defend ALL it's citizens or a be an independent small island?
Assistance from the USA would come in the form of 'hand over the chequebook first'.

{but didn’t our unions back in the 70’s / 80’s fight for many of our workers rights? }
The Tories did a good job at restraining the unions. Some senior Tories have already said that once out of the EU many of the 'rights' that workers enjoy now can and probably will be revoked. They will have to be to make UK workers as 'cost efficient' as the competition from China Bangladesh and India.

The EU guarantees basic workers rights.

As for the Unions- successive Tory governments have whittled away union powers over the last 40 years. If anyone thinks that particular clock will be turned back they are sorely mistaken.

The only very very slim
Chance of making this fiasco survivable ( other than staying as close to EU membership as possible ) is to do what the Rees Mogg lot want. Make no mistake their dream is to turn the UK into a corporation tax light, low regulation, low workers' rights Singapore. Hardly compatible with reinstated union powers.

Surfer but what would happen if a party that lets be kind, doesn't have the greatest track record in its love for the Unions or workers rights, ended up in a scenario where it was able to change things without the need for too much Parliamentary scrutiny ?

So what have the Labour Party been doing for the past 40 years regarding the tories & ‘whittling away our rights’ ?

Blair was in power for 15 years from ‘97.

Now consider the fact that Russia is constantly provoking the UK and other European counties by sending it's fighter jets, just into 'our' airspace.

And Russia has regular incursions into our sea space, not to mention cyber interference and murders in Wiltshire. Just google Russian military incursions.

Why membership of the EU as a safety net, rarely features in debate mystifies me.

Why are France or Germany seen as this huge threat by some Leave voters and yet any Russian activity is ignored? Russian interference ? Oh that's lovely, hunky dory. Jointly agreed food standards?- outrageous interference. It's so illogical.

Just back from a weekend away and caught up.

Love Catherine's post, so many holes in it, basically just rhetoric.

We will be keeping funding like the CAP and will continue to share rules on the oceans with other countries.

I can't think of an EU trade deal that is not in British interests.

But lets play some more:

"like allowing rich people to prevent search engines bringing up embarrassing information about themselves "- not just for rich people, everybody under GDPR, but hey make it sound elitist and its ok.

Claiming business will stay here because we are the 5th largest market in the world ( err no we aren't, confusing econoies based on GDP with markets), also businesses that are incurring extra costs in order to trade with a larger market where most of their trade goes will move, cause all of the things you listed, are in the EU too.

"Border controls haven't stopped us trading with America, China and Japan successfully. Most shipments are cleared in advance, there are very few actual checks on entry. "

Yes but this is already existing systems that cope with about 45% of all imports, 55% from the EU come in using country of origin. The systems aren't in place ( but I believe someone else has already dealt with this.

"The process can be streamlined and existing Free Trade Agreements can be adopted as a temporary measure until the new ones are in place."

Errr no they can't. Lots of countries with FTAs with the EU have said that the UK can't expect to get the same terms as the EU as its a much smaller market. FTAs can't just be rolled over, Liam Fox even admitted this earlier this month, but hey it challenges you perspective so you discounted it. Also showing massive ignorance of the way these things work, are we going to not protect our agriculture industry? Pretty sure no one in a rural area would have voted leave if this was the case.

"Our Parliament is not sovereign, EU law has precedence over our own"

Again, counter factual and untrue. BTW capacity payments count as subsidies under WTO rules, good luck with changing this law, also some of the rules regarding capacity payments and other energy industry issues are to do with the Paris Agreements, which we signed up to freely, and is not to do with the EU.

But hey, lets not facts get in the way of things.

Also I love the way the leave posters on here make out they are defending the poor.

The examples of a blighted area ( Sheffield I'm guessing) is not a good representation of the impact of EU immigration at all, but a good example of the government not using the powers it has to control immigration.

EU immigration hasn't caused lower wages, it hasn't caused higher unemployment and it isn't the cause of worsening services.

However you want to see how the poor will be impacted? Go read Britania Unchained by those lovely Brexiters you voted for, they'll tell you how lazy you are, and how wages should be lowered to compete with China and India, how employment regulations should be cut.

Turkeys voting for Christmas because the guy with the carving knife told you to.

The majority of voters loved the Tory actions against the Trade Unions - this is why Thatcher remained in power for 11 years, followed by another 7 under Major.

It was fine when they were coming for the other person, not so good when they come for you.

Funny how catherine never came back to comment when other posters picked jokes in the rhetoric.

holes not jokes!

Although maybe jokes was a Freudian slip.

But that’s my point Peregrina - what did labour do about union power?
Blair was our leader for 15 years, that’s a bloomin’ long time to right the wrongs of the Thatcher era & her hatred of trade unions.

During the referendum campaign people were saying the UK had no say in making rules and regulations in the EU. Now Boris et al are shouting that this deal means we will be a vassel state with no say in rules and regulations that we will still have to abide by. So which was it ? Both can't be true surely ?

Blair wasn't PM for 15 years, but yes to many he was Tory Lite. That seems to be what the electorate wants.

As to the vassal state bit - if we are going to 'become' one then we weren't before. However, we took so little interest in the EU that half the time we (politicians) couldn't be bothered to interact.

But normal people are not happy with the EU.
I saw a mumsnet post about tell me your wages... 90% on here said over £45k a year.
Try doing it on £12k.
Loads are not in the UK... So you don't understand how bad it is here, as your cushioned from poverty.
I want things to change, I want the no deal, I want the whole dam lot to be turned upside down, so our government are Forced.. To make changes.
We have nothing to lose, do you understand that. That life is so bad that all your what ifs and but you can do that mean nothing when life is so bloody crap for millions of us.
Poor paying jobs, rent that is over half our income, UC. A nightmare... So sod the lot of you, millions voted to say F.... It. Vote leave... Make our government work for us...

mummmy WTF has the EU got to do with people having poor paying jobs and high rent.

How on earth do you think that’s going to change by leaving the EU?