A little quiz for leavers mainly, but anyone may answer

[PrincessMargaret]

If you voted leave, please answer at least three of these, it must include #6.

1. Can you name a bad EU law?
2. What will you do outside the EU that you couldn't do inside the EU?
3. How will WTO tariffs keep us competitive?
4. How will border controls keep our lorries moving?
5. Why would any Multinational stay in the UK with tariffs, mountains of “country of origin” paperwork, and border hold ups?
6. How can you solve the Northern Ireland problem?
7. The EU citizen Hostile Environment. We now have twice as many NON EU immigrants coming to the UK to work than EU, how is that better?
8. Under WTO rules any one of 163 countries can hold a trade deal up for years, is that taking back control?
9. Trade deals take 8 years on average, what do we do in the meantime?
10. Where do you get your information from, ever thought there may be a hidden agenda?

Very interested to see the responses.

"we tried to negotiate but he wanted an arm and a leg in return for sod all."

Remembering that slowly and calmly working on the marriage brought with it unrestricted access to a market (on our doorstep) worth $18.8 trillion made up of 500 million consumers.

LeClerc, thanks. I suppose the misguided " longing for mud " that is heroics during very tough times when one proves how resilient and brave and tough one is, I don't know, is what no-dealers really want?

I had to be rushed twice into emergency surgery in my life because of certain medical conditions that threatened to kill me within 24 hours. It's no fun at all fighting for your life. The second round involves details I won't go into for brevities sake but getting to where I could walk again after having being so weakened was just as tough as almost dying.

Some people want to compare a successful Brexit to the US moon landing. Well the moon landing took almost 10 years to complete, there was a lot of risk along the way and it took a gargantuan effort to pull off and people died along the way.

When and if Brexit hits and particularly if no-deal occurs it will hit all sectors of the UK economy all at once in every direction. There simply won't be any resiliency in the system and possible severe fuel shortages say will have a direct impact upon food deliveries.

I think at best we are going to see a hungry, malnourished, impoverished, and depressed UK for the foreseeable future. It's sad that it wouldn't really have to be that way.

There is an element of 'boiling frog' at work here too, in that the expectations for institutions like the NHS have been gradually eroded over the years. I am not criticising the 'hands on' staff (the doctors and nurses) in any way but to be told that you can't see a GP for 4-8 weeks and 'important' procedures can be a year or more is so far from what should be possible. Similarly with cuts to council services. They are happy to send out a notice to say that this or the other is being cut, but why? We are paying and see increases in payments but still services are cut.

xebobfromus

At least the moon landings were a significant step in mankind's progress as a species and benefited everyone ultimately through resulting technological advances. Brexit will not. There will be nothing to show for the sacrifices we're supposed to want to endure.

And by the way 💐 for the tough times you went through.

Very interesting thread. Off to search for the remainers one.

I just popped this on another thread, but think I may have found the right analogy .....

The UK currently has a seat on the EU airplane
A Deal will give us a parachute when we jump out
No deal = No parachute

Yes but there are a couple of parachutes with differing number of holes in them.
Speaking of parachutes, there was a video clip on SKY online yesterday of a hang glider 'pilot' who forgot to clip on his harness. Spoiler, he made it down safely although possibly a bit bruised.

Beautiful video of what looks like Switzerland but I don't suppose he noticed.

Indeed, the parachutes are of varying quality

but when people compare No Deal Brexit to a divorce, we need a snappy response
and jumping out of a plane with no Parachute is an option

and it was the instructor who forgot to clip the learner on - bloody experts

{and it was the instructor who forgot to clip the learner on - bloody experts}
I wonder if his insurance will rise next year. And I hope he volunteered to do the washing.

Quiet, thanks. I try to not to think too much about it because one does have to go on living.

I saw that video of that guy hanging on for dear life to that hang-glider hoping he would't fall to his death from around 4,000 feet.

That might be a good metaphor for what the UK may experience in the coming new year.

Had to chuckle at Rees Mogg trying to trash Carney over The Bank of England's economic impact predictions for a disorderly Brexit, name calling does rather smack of desperation.

I was FURIOUS with Evan Davies though.
JRM ranting about products blocked from the UK by EU tariffs and the BBC missed the killer question
"such as ?"

Because we know very well that facts are in short supply with Brexiters

The real-terms impact of May's Brexit deal could be larger than the analysis suggests, as it assumes the UK would roll over all existing EU trade deals with third countries plus successfully strike new free trade deals with at least 17 other countries.

So they are expecting to roll over all existing EU trade deals and make shiny new trade deals with 17 other countries who will of course give the UK beneficial terms in the short transition period. That is what they have based their analysis on ? No wonder it is being lauded by Hammond as leaving the UK only slightly worse off than remaining in the EU

I suppose Hammond could have thumbed through the WTO guidebook and come up with some likely tariff rates and suggested them but that would probably scare the crap out of darling Theresa, who would ban it's release, The ERG would scream 'foul' and 'Project Fear' again and we would be no further forward.
Bear in mind the sub 1% 'slight loss' if it were a 'gain' would be heralded as unicorns all around.

To be fair to Hammond , he is still managing to say this shit with a straight face, one can only wonder at the havoc it is wreaking on his digestive system

He was saying 'hang on a minute' on previous occasions and was branded as a naysayer and 'Project Fear'. He and Mark Carney have numbers in front of them which although could be viewed in different lights will actually tell them where things are headed.
Counting the coins in your purse gives you a strong indication of how your shopping trip may turn out.

Well question 1. Freedom of establishment (although not a rule and a fundamental pillar of the EU) has meant a number of UK tax anti avoidance rules which are designed (and well designed) to stop money flowing offshore have had to be heavily amended therefore the EU has facilitated the loss of tax revenues out of the UK. To limit this to one law is really naive though, you need to understand the conflict that will inevitably arise given most of the EU member states operate a civil law system compared to our supior common law system. The building blocks to undermine that are already enshrined within the EU constitution, ie freedom of establishment.
Number 2 outside the EI we can create laws and policies that fit it with the needs of our country/society/economy rather than trying to create laws and policies to cover a culturally, politically and exonomically diverse bunch of countries.

1. WTO tariffs can be overridden by treaties. Most brexit supporters are accepting of the short term pain for the longer term good.
2. Most of the rest can be answered by looking at other countries that share boarders. There is an operating world outside the EU you know. Eg goods move between Canada and the US!

As you specifically asked about the Irish boarder - this was always going to be the difficult one and imo should have been being considered before a vote was announced but there were so many arrogant twats out there with no understanding people could think differently to them no one thought to put plans in place for a leave vote. But I think in the long term technology will irradiate the need for any hard boarder, in the meantime the UK leaves it as it is. If the EU wants to put a boarder in place that’s up to them to negotiate with other member states in their club, they can have one between the EU and Ireland if they want that border.

Ireland isn't leaving the EU. It's time Leavers acknowledged that it's the UK which is hell bent on leaving and must have a border. Isn't that what you voted for?

{But I think in the long term technology will irradiate the need for any hard boarder, }
You don't mean that.

Part of the urgency by the ERG to leave the EU is that new legislation to tighten up on tax rules come into force in May (I think).
The UK has a pretty good cross section of cultures, particularly in the major cities and parts of the UK mirror some parts of other EU countries.
Trade deals take years to be drawn up, are you proposing to hold your breath for say 7 years?
Of course goods move around, but it takes proper deals and regulations to do this in a prompt and economic manner. Fresh lettuce is no good it it is in a truck for a week.

i thought freedom of establishment was about recognition of qualifications?
Given London is a past master at off shoring wealth, i'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.

There is no evidence the UK Gov will, post brexit, have laws and policies in place to benefit the uk citizen, so, we've general austerity, increases in pension ages and some of the worlds most expensive tuition fees... none of which are anything to do the EU...whilst at the same time cutting billions in taxes for the wealthy......

i think you are being incredibly naive

"If the EU wants to put a boarder in place that’s up to them to negotiate with other member states in their club, they can have one between the EU and Ireland if they want that border."
It's the sainted WTO that wants a border (assume irradiate etc was an autocorrect fail). To operate under WTO, you have to have control of your economic territory- which may or may not take the form of a hard border.
Why should Ireland fuck its economy up further to suit the UK?

the only reasons to be against immigration are xenophobia.

Bollocks.

It is possible to be concerned about the effects of large scale immigration on a small island where most of the population is concentrated into a few urban areas without being xenophobic.

So many of the arguments thrown about are so binary and unsophisticated - I realise the referendum was binary but that doesn't mean all subsequent discussion has to be.

The areas which had the most immigration tended to vote Remain, so it implies that people who do know immigrants aren't worried about it.