Any Brexiters who have changed your minds....?

[onlyconnect]

If you voted Brexit but would now like to remain, could you call loudly for a second referendum please?
I'm a remainer and see the obvious problems with remainers asking for a second referendum but if former Brexiters were to ask, it would have legitimacy surely.

OutsideInTheGarden - I agree with every word you have written. Still, you may as well talk to the wall as try to reason with this lot. If everyone in 1939 had been like them, we would all be speaking German now. If they have their way - and it's pretty clear that they are used to getting their way - we all soon will be.

Is it a 'hate crime' to say that these days? I can't keep up with the madness.

Have I changed my mind to vote Leave? No way. I want to live in a democracy not a dictatorship.

My dad who was an ardent leaver, admitted to me he would vote remain now. He knows he was fed a load of lies.

OutsideInTheGarden

So, you admit you wrote a load of bollox then? with no evidence to back up your ridiculous claims.

Last Tory manifesto had rather a lot in common with FN's indeed we ve gone quite a bit further on "benefit reform" an EU vote/leaving the EU, deportations and accepting no migrants.
Your correct Poland and other eastern states have shown strong right wing tendencies and its the EU trying to stop this and UK Gov/uk MEPs opposing.

anonymousobserver In 1939 we didn't turn our backs on Europe, so its actually leave style voters who would have ensured German dominance, i believe the Leavers fav paper The Mail were in full support of our German friends, as Hitler rose to power and for a few years after too?

You do know the EEC was set up to stop this sort of tragedy in the future?

But if Outside is correct and its all a plot to put EU troops all over Europe, then this exactly the wrong time to be leaving the EU.

OutsideInTheGarden

Thats why i linked to Merchandised Exports, 10th is still very good, especially as you correctly say, our reliance on Services but its exporting Goods that will provide jobs throughout the UK, FS is a great success and prmarily SE based.
That other EU countries have better exporting stories show that its not the EU holding us back but leaving means exporting will be harder and more disruptive.

Which is why business are so keen on a deal, any deal....... makes you wonder? perhaps they don't have a clue what they are talking about...

What historical justification is there for Polish extremist nationalists have for hating Muslims?
It's against the law to say it in Poland but there was a fair bit of local conspiracy to target Jews. I know because I have family who experienced it first hand.
Like everything else, it's complicated.

Two observations.
Unless the UK retains CU and SM rules with the EU it's high ranking in terms of trade will plummet.
Since the vote in 2016, NO party has made any real attempt to change the circumstances which are the root cause of the vote, although the Home Office backed dislike of foreigners is having an effect in that many are thinking twice about staying in the UK.

{Which is why business are so keen on a deal, any deal....... makes you wonder? perhaps they don't have a clue what they are talking about..}

Jurgen, the head of Seimens in the UK was on Question time (radio 4) on Friday night.
He was saying that although far from ideal, his industry can work with the proposal as set out by Mrs May.
It was interesting hearing John Redwood pretending he knew about industry, and failing.

"I want to live in a democracy not a dictatorship"

*Well you should be happy staying in the EU because the EU is a democratic institution and the U.K. has retained sovereignty.

1939 was about the U.K. turning towards Europe - this reference totally disproves your point. 1939 was about rejecting isolationism and realising we are intrinsically linked to Europe and so we need to get involved.

Leaver 'logic' can be very twisted at times.*

in relation to foreign troops. We are already part of a 'North Atlantic' army, we already have foreign troops based on our soil. Do you have a problem with this?

No idea what happened with bold there.

Bellini surge - the Polish fought long and hard to preserve Christianity in Europe, fighting against the Ottoman Empire and effectively stopping the Westwood expansion of Islam at the Battle of Vienna in 1689. The Poles will never accept a significant Islamic presence in their country and as a generalisation have what we would call extremely racist views towards non-whites. PC SJW-snowflake concerns will never gain traction in Poland.

Nope haven't changed my mind. Furious with Theresa May. Would probably support a hard Brexit now.

1TisILeClerc - yes and the bosses of Aston Martin and Bentley see no particular problem with Brexit and have acted to reduce possible disruption by diverting sea-borne deliveries to ports other than Dover, e.g. Immingham. Any fall in the currency post -Brexit would boost their mainly-export led business. They're the sort of businessmen I would listen to, people who see opportunity and advantage in a situation and not those who expect the world to serve them.
As for disruption at ports, the French PM was saying yesterday that they will pull out all the stops to ensure that the Dover-Calais route would remain an open door.

OutsideInTheGarden I'm still wondering about your views on the 'North Atlantic Army' and the foreign troops on British soil.

Are foreign troops always a bad thing you sounded like you were sure they were?

Mousse moose :"in relation to foreign troops. We are already part of a 'North Atlantic' army, we already have foreign troops based on our soil. Do you have a problem with this?"
The US troops based here as part of Nato are here under a specific treaty, one which does not give the USA the right to make our laws, nor collect our taxes or police our people.
Eu army forces based here would not be under those conditions. Don't try to conflate NATO with the EU army.

You talk with total certainty about what this vaguely proposed EU army would and wouldn't do. Your crystal ball is very impressive - are you a man?

There are many ways troops can work together, NATO, UN or as a single enterprise.

If, and it's a massive IF, an EU army was formed we have no idea what treaties would be discussed and what rules written. If, and again a massive IF, this happened it is likely the British army would have been a key player.

I know of several young EU national who have come to U.K. to work here specifically so they can join the British army. It is massively respected and would have a significant influence.

Within the EU we shape and influence policy.

Moussemoose, how can you call the EU a democracy? How can I vote to an EU Commissioner removed? Am I able to ask my MEP to propose a new law? Can MEPs stop laws being made by the EU Commission?
The answers are: I can't vote a Commissioner out of office since they are unelected.
MEPs cannot propose laws.
MEPs have no actual power to reject or amend laws proposed by the EU Commission. They can vote to reject or amend them but this has no legal force and the unelected EU Commission can, and does, impose them anyway.

The EU is not democratic. Well it is in the same way an absolute monarchy is, there's one man and he has the one vote.

Sovereignty? How can a country be sovereign when it has no say in 70% of it's laws? How can it be sovereign when it has taxes extracted from it and then is told where and how it can spend that money?
How can it be sovereign when it has no right to decide who can enter and live in its territory?
How can a country be sovereign when more and more of it's areas of policy are decided by others? - see the plans for EU foreign policy and EU army.
How can a country be sovereign when it can't make trade deals for itself.
Clearly your dictionary defines sovereignty as slavery.

Aston Martin and Bentley are niche market car makers and are part of what the UK IS good at. However their workforce is small and being niche would fail if it were to expand to the point of 'mass market'.
Having troops from across Europe present in the UK is not a 'threat' They would be here as friends and partners and unless something catastrophic went on with diplomatic relations would not be turned on UK citizens. Rotating troops around Europe would bind the nations together and further reduce the possibility of war within Europe.
The British army was employed in NI as 'peacekeepers' during the troubles, that was a seriously bad move.

How can you change a member of the Cabinet Office? You can't because they are civil servants.

The Commission is the equivalent to the civil service. As with many other systems of government the influence of the Commission is less subtle than the British equivalent but it is non the less a valid form found in many democracies.

The European Parliament is elected. The Council of Ministers is made up of elected representatives. That is why it is called a democracy.

MEPs do have the power to block and amend legislation. The EU Parliament co legislates with the Council of Ministers.

The issue leavers seem to have is that the EU system is not familiar to them and does not replicate the U.K. system so they see it as 'undemocratic'. The EU is a valid democratic structure, it is different to the U.K. with its own pros and cons but it is democratic.

The cry 'lack of democracy' usually reflects a little Englander lack of understanding.

Mousse moose -"MEPs do have the power to block and amend legislation. The EU Parliament co legislates with the Council of Ministers."

Thank you for agreeing with me. We have established then that the EU Parliament is a talking shop that has no power to propose of amend laws that apply to us. The EU Parliament doesn't legislate, it rubber-stamps and only if the answer is yes. No where have I seen that before?

The EU commission is not like the cabinet office. The cabinet office doesn't decide what laws to put in place and has no power to do so. Of course the legal texts to any Act of Parliament are drafted by civil servants (as in every country - one could hardly expect an MP to be proficient in legalese) but they don't actually decide what laws will apply to a country.

1tisILeClerc - "They would be here as friends and partners and unless something catastrophic went on with diplomatic relations would not be turned on UK citizens. "

Oh so things would have to be bad before the EU army would be turned upon the people. That's comforting to know, that my safety and freedom is at the whim of a foreign power who can oppress me if I don't do as they say.
You are actually happy with that? Incredible.

Those who would trade freedom for security will have none, and deserve neither.

The Commission proposes legislation due to the nature of the EU. If every MEP could propose the system would be backlogged as happens in some systems of democracy.

To steam line the process and to make sure legislation that is not really applicable to the the EU does not clog the system legislation can only be proposed by the Commission.

This is entirely democratic and within the bounds of what is considered democratic. The U.S senate can not propose legislation, does that mean it is not democratic?

The EU Parliament can amend laws btw.

The EU system is different but it is not undemocratic. The British Civil Service at the top echelons hold a great deal of power it is just that power is hidden. Does this hidden power make the U.K. more or less democratic? Think about that for a minute.

Outside
You obviously don't understand the concept that there can be anything between black and white.
You see the signs of oppression as soldiers marching around and shooting. What about a couple of ordinary looking blokes leaving a bottle with Novichok around.
Why would EU troops be ordered to fire on UK citizens? The majority of the citizens in Europe like where they live, as can be presumed by the fact there is free movement and it is very easy to move if you want to. If I got a job in Toulouse or Antwerp, I could sell my house and move there tomorrow. Since there has been no attempt to restrict FoM by the UK, why aren't there tens of millions of EU citizens in the UK? There are around 3 Million, mostly married and working in the UK economy. Unlike UK pensioners who moved to the South of France/Spain/Italy as the warmer climate suits us as we get older.

Norway does not have any MEPs so cannot vote in the European parliament, but is subject to EU laws (in specified areas). What they do have is a number of lobbyists who follow the discussions and meet with MEPs from other countries and try to swing the discussion towards helping Norway. It would be better to have direct access in some respects but the Norwegians feel that this is a 'cost effective' way to proceed as their needs FROM the EU are not as comprehensive as other countries.

1tisILeClerc - "They would be here as friends and partners and unless something catastrophic went on with diplomatic relations would not be turned on UK citizens."

What a frankly terrifying statement.

What exactly is your agenda here?

I have 2 parts to my 'agenda' for being on MN.
As I am British but not resident it is one of the better sources of debate and news as I have no TV.
Second, through my posts I hope that people will think about the issues around the UK leaving. I have already said I voted Remain but seeing how the UK government have 'shit the bed', taking a wider view I think it should leave. It is obviously complicated but with so many posters and politicians telling lies, either through ignorance or as a deliberate ploy for their own gain I am frustrated.
I am not saying anyone has to take my views but please at least engage your brain. If it wasn't for friends and family in the UK I wouldn't give a damn what you do.