Any Brexiters who have changed your minds....?

[onlyconnect]

If you voted Brexit but would now like to remain, could you call loudly for a second referendum please?
I'm a remainer and see the obvious problems with remainers asking for a second referendum but if former Brexiters were to ask, it would have legitimacy surely.

"An EU army is coming stationed in every country - what an absolute load of hyperbolic nonsense. If you are lurking and don't know which side to take read this rubbish and weep"

When your children/grandchildren are called up to suppress dissent / have their skulls cracked by EU troops on the streets of the UK, just cast your mind back and recall that you voted for it.

Take a look around the EU. Do you really think the way their police forces and armies behave is something you want to see in the UK? God knows sometimes our police have been out of order but it's nothing like the scale of EU forces.
You need to travel more.

It's not our fault. That's all I can hear.

TM made leavers the Brexit secretary and the Foreign secretary! Oh no there is a whole secret department who are actually running things. Do you really think this shit show are capable of running a secret department?

'Treason' May - she is a former Tory Home Secretary! If you are claiming Tory Home Secretary's are traitors you really are scrapping the barrel and I'm am firmly on the left.

'I need to travel more' yep you start insulting. I have friends and family living all over Europe. I work with people of many nationalities.

Are you suggesting the Swedish police are worse than police in the U.K.? Or are you making sweeping generalisations about 27 other countries?

Another 'Saturday night troll'.
Multiplying the EU payments by 40 odd years to make it look like a big number.
Rabidly attacking all and sundry with random unsubstantiated bollocks.
With attitudes like that of 'Outsideinthegarden' the EU will be well shot of the UK.

Are you also aware that many EU countries had fascist, yes actual fascist, governments up till the 1970s/80s e.g. Spain, Portugal?

They weren't in the EU then!!! Spain and Portugal were only able to join once they'd got rid of their dictators. They were dirt poor before joining.

OutsideInTheGarden
I told him to go to the <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.ons.gov" target="_blank">www.ons.gov website and check the facts. I doubt he will.
I'm very interested in your figures, a sound looking argument and I'd like to explore these some more. I've just checked the ONS website and your quoted figures don't seem to appear. Can you please let me know the specific sources of those figures? They have lots of nice graphs and I want to make sure I'm looking at the right ones. Thanks in advance.

They weren't in the EU ffs. I'm old. I remember them. Stupid. Just stupid.

Jason118 - yes sorry the data for the UK probably is on the ons website though it's a bit of a mare to find things. I did make a mistake and quote the figures in £ when it should have been US$. However the particular report I was quoting from is actually the UNCTAD (United Nations Conference on Trade and Development) as it contains data for other countries rather than just the UK. Here it is:
unctad.org/en/PublicationsLibrary/diaeiainf2018d1_en.pdf

I really wish that Remainers wouldn't talk down their country and actually educated themselves as regards to the economic strength of the UK. All I ever hear from them is that the UK is a small economy and we don't make anything anybody wants to buy etc. This is despite the fact that we are the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world and also one of the top 7 or 8 exporters in the world. Not bad for a country of only ~65 million.

Another complaint I hear is that it's foreign companies that own half our industries. This is a particularly odd one since this is in fact what FDI actually involves. Nobody looks at the other side of the transaction - what exactly do you think the British ex-owner of the company just sold does with the money? Burn it? They don't. They invest it in other companies, either UK-based or abroad (there's outward FDI again). Why? Because they want to get a better return on their capital.
I suppose I do have an advantage over the average person in that I read Economics at university and I can't expect everyone to have done the same.
I have looked at membership of the EU from an economic point of view and it really isn't a good deal for the UK.
I was lucky enough to be at uni and studying these sort of things during the ERM crisis back in the early 90s. We have some very interesting debates on Euro membership etc. Our conclusion: the ERM / Euro would fail with massive damage caused to weaker EU economies. It is inevitable unless full tax and fiscal union is undertaken.

"They weren't in the EU ffs. I'm old. I remember them. Stupid. Just stupid."

My point is that most EU countries are not the same as the UK in that we are not prone to such fascism/communism and our British way of life and traditional freedoms are not as deeply culturally embedded in other EU nations. Most EU nations have ID cards for example whereas we resist such infringements of our civil liberties.

1tisILeClerc - "Another 'Saturday night troll'.
Multiplying the EU payments by 40 odd years to make it look like a big number.
Rabidly attacking all and sundry with random unsubstantiated bollocks."

I'm sorry, I just quoted the approximate payments made to the EEC/EU since 1973. It is a fact that we've paid ~£500 Billion (net £380 billion) since we joined. No attempt was made to make it seem bigger that it is. It just is. A fact.

I haven't made any rabid attacks on anybody, merely stated my opinion. You see rabid attack, I see healthy debate. We are all different I suppose.
Merely stating that many EU counties (barring the UK) have had fascist governments within living memory isn't rabidly attacking anybody. Why do you wish to airbrush history?

OutsideInTheGarden

Could you please put your stats into context? Like, are we talking about brand new foreign investments coming in or are the numbers you quote also including existing multiyear commitments for instance? The value of the pound has sunk from £1.31 to the Euro in May 2016
www.poundsterlinglive.com/best-exchange-rates/british-pound-to-euro-exchange-rate-on-2016-05-31
To £1.12 to the Euro today. That's almost a 17% difference. This could have inflated the value in ££ of FDI in the UK since the referendum.
It's certainly made holidays in the EU 17% more expensive since 2.5 years ago. Cheers for that!

Quote from the www.ons.gov data - "The increase in credits and stability of debits in 2017 implies that net FDI earnings increased to become positive in 2017, from negative £1.6 billion in 2016 to £22.1 billion."

So you can see, since the June 2016 vote, net FDI in the UK has risen substantially.

{. Most EU nations have ID cards for example whereas we resist such infringements of our civil liberties.}
And then moan because you say there are too many foreigners but without ID cards and proper checking you have no idea who or where they are.

Yes the Danes, Swedes and the Belgiums all well known for their extreme governments. You want Remainers educated?

You read economics good, cos you sure as fuck didn't read politics or history.

{When your children/grandchildren are called up to suppress dissent / have their skulls cracked by EU troops on the streets of the UK, just cast your mind back and recall that you voted for it.}
EU troops in the UK would be from the UK, or maybe on a rotation from other EU countries, in which case the UK contingent would be elsewhere in Europe.

Quietrebel - sure. Have a look at www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/ukforeigndirectinvestmenttrendsandanalysis/july2018
In particular look at Figure 7: Impact of exchange rate movements on foreign direct investment credits, UK, 2017
You will see that the impact due to exchange rates is about £2Bn (out of £80Bn) so about 5%. Fairly nugatory then.

Going to a university does not necessarily mean you learn anything.

1tisILeClerc - "{. Most EU nations have ID cards for example whereas we resist such infringements of our civil liberties.}
And then moan because you say there are too many foreigners but without ID cards and proper checking you have no idea who or where they are."

Where have I moaned that there are too many foreigners? Odd thing for me to moan about since my spouse is one (and has an ID card). My children also speak "furriner". I'm not so good at "furriner babble" though but I can get by (I try not to as the in-laws are insufferable :-)

All foreigners in the UK have ID. How on earth do you think they get into the country except by plane, train or ferry. All of these methods required ID/passports to be presented.

Granted those who arrive by dingy/in the back of a lorry don't have ID (they destroy it before arrival) but they are then issue ID cards by the UK government.

"Going to a university does not necessarily mean you learn anything."

Indeed. I have not made any appeals to authority based on my education but merely expressed a desire for Remainers to go off an fact-find for themselves rather than spout tired old (and inaccurate) soundbites about economics when they clearly display no knowledge of the subject (or else they wouldn't spout such garbage).
I'm more than happy to discuss the economic aspects of EU membership with any Remainers. Who knows, you may even convince me of the merits of it :-)

*Most EU nations have ID cards for example whereas we resist such infringements of our civil liberties8

All well and good until you have to prove who you are, passports, driving licences, bank statements, Government Gateway Id's, tax accounts..... wouldn't it be far simpler & cheaper to have just ONE document and number for proof of ID?

Also, UK is 10th exporting nation, $ trillion behind Germany who are 3rd. We are below France, Russia, Holland & Italy and just ahead of Canada and Mexico.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

I would now vote remain. Whatever makes it easier for me and mine to leave this country for good.

When your children/grandchildren are called up to suppress dissent / have their skulls cracked by EU troops on the streets of the UK, just cast your mind back and recall that you voted for it

What a load of bollox!

You've not a shred of evidence for this, none, zero, zilch!

EU/Foreign troops on any sovereign country in Europe curbing dissent would cause an uprising, can you image the proud French or the nationalistic Polish accepting this? you're talking out of your backside.

One good thing about the ECJ is that it can limit the powers of the state.

jasjas1973 - you forgot to account for services. The UK is the 2nd largest exporter of services in the world, ahead of Germany, France, China, Japan, India and well every other nation on Earth except for the USA.
Once you give the full picture, i.e. exports of goods and services the UK is 6th (and that's after the recent 10-12% fall in the £ exchange rate. Fluctuating exchange rates mean we generally vie for 4th-6th place with France and Japan.

Isn't it nice to have the full picture?

I'll charitably ascribe your exclusion of vital facts to ignorance rather than Remainer malice.

jasjas1973 - Two years ago Nick Clegg attacked Nigel Farage on the subject of an EU army, calling it "a dangerous fantasy".
Over the last couple of weeks both Macron and Merkel have called for an EU army to be set up. (plans are well under way).

Non-native EU troops will be sent to and stationed in, other EU nations. This is what the USSR did. Lord only knows why European nations are hell-bent on recreating the Soviet Union within Western (and now Eastern) Europe. Gorbachev himself was most perplexed at the direction of the EU.

jasjas1973: "One good thing about the ECJ is that it can limit the powers of the state."

I'll rephrase that: "One good thing about the ECJ is that it takes powers from nation states and gives it to the unlected EU." There that's better. Or at least you seem to think.

jasjas1973: "can you image the proud French or the nationalistic Polish accepting this? you're talking out of your backside. "

Ah yes the proud French, 36% of whom voted for the Front National at the last Presidential Election.
The nationalistic Polish? Would that be the same Polish who have a visceral hatred of muslims (with some historical justification mind)? Go to Poland one day and play a game of spot-the-non-white-face.

So the French are proud and the Polish nationalistic but the British are fascist, racist scum for voting to live in an independent country? Ok. Whatever.