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Brexit

If you are a Brit abroad you will have more rights post Brexit than if you are in the UK

112 replies

Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 19:30

Verhofstadt said he was "optimistic" that a deal could be reached "in the coming weeks in the interests of the Union and in the interests of the UK.

He urged EU negotiators to offer a right to "unhindered onward movement" for UK nationals living in the EU, allowing them to move home and work between the 27 states, in return for a "right of lifelong return" for EU citizens currently in Britain who move away from the country in future.

I was in Downing Street and they are ready to go for such a trade-off," said Mr Verhofstadt. "If the Council were to push for such a solution, it is a trade-off that is possible.

From the European but covered elsewhere too.

So basically if you are from the EU living here you can come and go as you please.

If you are from the UK living in the EU now you can come and go in any of the 27 countries.

If you are from the UK and live in the UK your movement will be restricted after Brexit.

Fucking marvellous.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 25/10/2018 07:04

If you are from the UK and live in the UK your movement will be restricted after Brexit.

It's the will of the people donchaknow ? Be interesting when people do find out what their will was. It's impossible to see the UK allowing any form of FoM into the UK, and it's hard to see the EU being able to offer an asymmetric situation. Despite what's said the one thing all Brexiteers are expecting to see from Brexit is a hostile environment for foreigners.

MumInBrussels · 25/10/2018 08:00

I hope it's true about freedom of movement arrangements, but the UK has so far shown itself to care not even a tiny bit about Brits living in the EU27. The EU has always vastly overestimated the extent to which the UK will offer things to EU citizens in the UK if they reciprocate to UK citizens in the EU27, because it's politically far more desirable for the UK government to be seen to be restricting rights for immigrants than protecting their citizens living abroad. Which is nice.

It's depressing to realise how little your country and government care about you. I knew it wasn't much, but I thought at least they were vaguely interested in protecting core rights for us to live and work. Apparently not so much.

1tisILeClerc · 25/10/2018 08:09

At the moment May and co are still arguing over the toys in the pram and have not decided which ones to throw out so as Guy Verhovstrat (spelling?) says nothing is actually agreed until it is all agreed.
I wouldn't trust the UK gov as far as you could throw them, and then they would change their mind.

Motheroffourdragons · 25/10/2018 08:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 25/10/2018 08:59

It's depressing to realise how little your country and government care about you.

It's actually an enlightening moment - it promotes self reliance. I don't trust any government of any stripe to do anything for my benefit, and haven't for a long while. Part of the irony of Brexit is that there's a rump of people who claim they've lost faith in "the system" who are now more dependent than ever on "the system" doing right by them. Which, underscores their lack of critical faculties .

Why did you vote for Brexit ?
To give the Tories a bloody nose
Who do you trust on Brexit ?
The Tories !

er, right Hmm

threetrees · 25/10/2018 12:01

the premise of the OP is wrong, as I don't see the rights of Brits living outside the EU any better than those in it

or is the EU external border your outer horizon?

Mistigri · 25/10/2018 13:18

I don't blame the OP for being pissed off tbh.

OTOH the British in Europe lose a number of fundamental rights, including as far as I can tell total disenfranchisement for those with 15 years plus abroad.

I will not have a vote anywhere as of next March as I will lose my right to vote in European and local elections. I have fewer voting rights than women in the UK did in the 1800s ie pre suffragettes.

DGRossetti · 25/10/2018 13:20

I will not have a vote anywhere as of next March as I will lose my right to vote in European and local elections. I have fewer voting rights than women in the UK did in the 1800s ie pre suffragettes.

Be fair, they didn't have Bake Off though.

Mistigri · 25/10/2018 13:32

Be fair, they didn't have Bake Off though.

Lol! But if bake off is on the BBC then I can't participate in that either.

Bearbehind · 25/10/2018 14:58

the premise of the OP is wrong, as I don't see the rights of Brits living outside the EU any better than those in it

As I understand it, if that proposal were to be agreed a UK resident who currently lives in the UK would not have FOM to other EU countries.

A UK person who currently lives in the EU would have indefinite FOM across all 27 EU countries.

I'm very happy to be corrected if I'm wrong - I very much want to be wrong!

OP posts:
1tisILeClerc · 25/10/2018 15:04

Of course all the FoM stuff will not actually stop people moving to other countries but it will add a layer of hoops and hurdles to be gone through rather than an automatic 'right' (across the EU27) as it is at the moment. It will mean visas, permits, expense and a greater possibility that you will be 'rejected'.

DGRossetti · 25/10/2018 15:24

It will mean visas, permits, expense and a greater possibility that you will be 'rejected'.

Or, in the UK, the chance of being arbitrarily deported. Bearing in mind the Windrush deportees weren't immigrants. They weren't naturalised citizens. They were British citizens by birth.

Also remember that the current PM, in her previous regeneration as Home Secretary (not so much Dr. Who, more Dr. Who-the-fuck) repeated tried to break international law by removing citizenship from UK born citizens leaving them stateless.

Posters on this thread may have forgotten. The Great British Public may have forgotten. But I can assure you the grown-ups haven't. If Theresa May is having problems dealing with the EU on a less than formal basis, it will be down to the fact that she's damaged goods when it comes to credibility and basic human rights.

AlphaJuno · 25/10/2018 23:16

@DGRossetti Why did you vote for Brexit ?
To give the Tories a bloody nose
Who do you trust on Brexit ?
The Tories !

Exactly. One of the main reasons I didn't vote for Brexit. I'm not exactly rich and austerity has probably affected me negatively. I just didn't trust the Tories to manage the process or have the interests of the most vulnerable and poor as a priority throughout the whole thing. In fact, I was scared that the Tories would see it as an excuse to erode human and workers rights and leave us worse off. Now I know some poor people did vote for Brexit, but the ones I knew saw a lot of 'foreigners' in their town and blamed the lack of opportunity on them. How anyone thought being left at the mercy of the Tories was a good thing, I don't know.
Unfortunately it's turning out just as I predicted 😔.

Motheroffourdragons · 26/10/2018 08:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

PurpleOva · 26/10/2018 11:14

I've lived abroad for coming up to ten years now. So am not far from losing UK voting rights.

Does Brexit mean I will lose the right to vote in local elections where I live? Or is that just for people who live in the EU under EU rules?

I have permanent residence, so I assume people who apply for official residence status where they live, would still have the right to vote in local elections?

I'll be seeking dual citizenship at some point hopefully.

My main concern has been the barrier to moving back to the UK with my family as my husband is why I live abroad. I got the kids UK passports sorted, but would now expect to have to apply for visas for my husband, where we currently have free movement.

threetrees · 26/10/2018 12:47

1tis: that's possible, just like how it is outside EU - still, border control is actually vital for a country's security and long term health

threetrees · 26/10/2018 12:52

AJUno - Labour are no better in helping the poor than Cons, so your post makes no sense - ie. how can mass mega immigration help poor people in UK, ever heard of the housing crisis, zero hrs etc... ?? have a think, because this is all Labour's doing thanks to Tony Blair

DGRossetti · 26/10/2018 13:05

Does Brexit mean I will lose the right to vote in local elections where I live? Or is that just for people who live in the EU under EU rules?

When the UK leaves the UK, as things stand UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. As far as I am aware the right to vote in local elections derives from being an EU citizen.

So in the absence of any further agreement, yes: you've lost your vote. But at least other people will have taken back control. So be grateful for that.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 13:09

Yes, if the deal goes through, then UK expats in the EU would have more rights than those living in the Uk,
although post-Brexit both UK and E27 expats will not have quite all the rights they had before

Both the UK and the EU would have to sign this agreement

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 13:15

Daniel Hannan, prominent Brexiter, said he has seen the draft Withdrawal Agreement
and that there would be a right to vote in elections, but it is not clear whether he means local and / or GEs

So it is possible that full voting rights would remain, i.e. that E27 citizens resident in the UK might have the rights to vote in UK GEs, just like Commonwealth citizens do

and that UK expats would then vote in national elections in their host country too.

We will have to see the details, if any deal is actually signed.
In fact, the deal for expats might even be signed separately if there is no A50 WIthdrawal Agreement.

DGRossetti · 26/10/2018 13:22

Daniel Hannan, prominent Brexiter, said he has seen the draft Withdrawal Agreement and that there would be a right to vote in elections,

Because so far, he's been spot on the money every single time ?

You'd have done better to had read tea leaves. At least then you get a cup of tea of of it (other hot beverages are available).

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 13:26

The de-industrialised regions in, especially the NE, happened during the 1980s, when Mrs Thatchers policy was to let the "weak" businesses go to the wall without support, in the belief that new ones would arise from the ashes.

Unfortunately, the well-paid skilled jobs that were lost were gernerally replaced by casual less well-paid work.

Many of the former industrialised heartlands have had very low immigration:
their real problem is lack of well-paid jobs, which means less money both for consumers and the councils from council tax

The whole country is run by spivs on both sides, for the benefits of spivs like them: hedge-funders abd disaster capitalists

A vicious downward spiral, caused by short-term thinking

I live in Germany, where the govt would support manufacturing businesses going through a bad patch,
because they think that longterm an economy based more on making goods is better than one based on people selling services like nails or junk food to each other

There is a place for both in an economy, but the UK economy has deep structural problems going back at least a century.

Boris Johnson, 2013:

“If we left the EU… we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by ‘Bwussels’,

but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure…

Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans?

That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer is nothing to do with the EU.”

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 13:28

I thought the OP would be reassured by hearing from a leading Brexiter.
He claims to have seen the WA draft

Such a prominent Brexit leader couldn't possibly be dreaming, or telling porkies, could he

DGRossetti · 26/10/2018 14:09

Such a prominent Brexit leader couldn't possibly be dreaming, or telling porkies, could he

The problem is "prominent Brexit Leader" is an anagram of "absolute twat of the highest order".

We often berate the Brexiteer voters, but it's worth reflecting that they people they follow are just as thick. In fact, I am trying to think of any Leaver campaigners who had arguments you could engage with, and am struggling.

Which Leaver campaigners were pretty up to speed, correctly informed, and able to engage in discussion ?

Kewqueue · 26/10/2018 14:37

As a British citizen in in the EU, my FOM is essential. Many of us depend on FOM for our jobs. Without a job I couldn't afford to live here - but at the same time I would have no right to bring dh to the UK or access benefits there. I had no right to vote in the referendum which stripped me of my rights. Keeping FOM would at least limit the damage inflicted.