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Brexit

Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2018 23:25

The key phrase that was once parroted by all the lead Brexiteers, and repeated by their social media followers.

BUT curiously, it seems that those who once said it with such conviction seem to be backing away from it.

Take a lot around at who is saying it, and who no longer seem to be. Certainly not with the same force.

May, alone, seems to have decided to nail herself to the mast of No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal in her post Salzberg Toddler Strop. She seemed to be announcing that in practice No Deal was now official government policy, because the EU weren’t playing ball. It wasn’t an abandonment of Chequers but it seemed close to it.

But who else is still saying it? It would seem its only the die hards on twitter and the Nigel Farage / Arron Banks camp.

Not people with tangible power. Not people who have to actually vote on the matter. Apart from Theresa.

David Davis who at one point seemed to be saying it every other day, now seems - along with Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson - to have moved to a Canada Plus position. They don’t seem to be anywhere near so enthusiastic about a No Deal. The ERG as a whole largely seems to be backing off the idea, though if it happened, they probably wouldn’t be too upset. They just they are starting to see more risk than even than even they would like to hazard as a first choice, contained within No Deal. When No Deal is starting to be perceived as too risky for disaster capitalists, you might start to pay attention.

But nope. Not Theresa.

Theresa has very firmly got it into her head that this is her ‘Iron Lady’ moment. The rhetoric about not being for turning, is deliberately evocative to a certain group. She’s trying to get a deal like Thatcher got with the CAP from the EU. Except we’ve been there and done that and politically is that even an option for the EU to do that in our current political climate with Trump and the Rise of the Authoritarians.

May’s previous track record, also points to her stubborness going above and beyond the point where it is sensible - or even sane - to continue to pursue. She is pig headed to the point of spite. She takes things personally when things going against her. In the Home Office she took cases to appeal which defy all sense of logic and public interest purpose. Its been up to the courts to tell her no in, no uncertain terms before she has eventually stopped. And in some cases she ignored this. Its petty, its arrogant and right now it's a clear and present danger to the national interest.

The Cabinet who have remained loyal to May up to this point, are also starting to recognise the danger. The Times has reported that Raab, Gove, Hunt and Javid are in this camp and May can not necessarily rely on them. They are said to be leaning towards the ERG position.

The problem being that the DUP seem to be going in the opposite direction in leaning towards a softer Brexit. They label both Chequerers and Canada as unworkable. The reality of the border is kicking in, in the circle that matters. The DUP can not ignore nor underestimate the potential for rising support for a United Ireland.

Theresa as a committed Unionist is now very much at odds with the DUP.

May also is facing rebellion for a reported 40 MPs over Canada, according to Amber Rudd. Again they are pushing for a softer option.

In the background is the revised labour policy which now supports a People’s Vote, if they can’t force a General Election. They also won’t support a deal for May. It's something of a fudged position with limited effect, but it's a move to a softer position than previously. Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer, also is alleged to have challenged the leadership by saying Remain would be an option during the Labour conference. McDonnell has very much denied this.

In October 2016, it was said by Donald Tusk that it was a choice between a very Hard Brexit or No Brexit.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37650077

It was also said by the former Polish Finance Minister that Hard Brexit was the easiest political choice for both the UK and Europe.
www.straitstimes.com/opinion/the-political-logic-of-hard-brexit

For everything that has gone on in the last two years, these two points of view seem to be holding up better than the majority that any British commentator has come out with.

And whilst Theresa might now be the only one still saying no deal is better than a bad deal, she is perhaps the closest to the political reality of the dynamics of how everything is going.

Her Salzburg speech, definitely came from a mess of her own making, as she was unable and unwilling to take different political approaches and she lacked pragmatism and flexibility. But at the same time, where she is now is also a result of always being something of a hostage to political circumstance too.

Her speech can also be read as an inadvertent announcement and a warning of ‘accidental no deal’ because she does recognise that all alternative political solutions domestically are impossible to her and she can only be saved by the EU. That’s not taking back control. That’s begging for a way out and for the EU to solve British political problems, which they have always said they would not intervene in.

And isn’t that just the irony.

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Mightybanhammer · 03/10/2018 00:02

somerville my point is I was taught those points rigorously at school. You didn't and learned at university. The problem is with secondary education policy. It has completely failed huge swathes of the moderately able and given the non academic entirely unrealistic expectations whilst saddling them with massive debt they will never repay. That festering carbuncle will explode sooner or later.

prettybird · 03/10/2018 00:04

We do need to laugh on occasions SmileGrin

I've also started doing Random Acts of Kindness just because ..... Flowers

although on reflection, they're not 100% random as no Leaver would be a recipient Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 00:14

Reports that May's speech will be entitled: "Our Future Is In Our Hands" 🤮

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 03/10/2018 00:22

Reports that May's speech will be entitled: "Our Future Is In Our Hands" 🤮

And yet, if we mess it up ‘twill all be the fault of the EU. How does that work..?

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 00:27

May, like most Leavers, is channelling Homer Simpson:

"Everyone's to blame except me"

Mistigri · 03/10/2018 06:03

Give yourself a pat on the back for whatever you studied that was so much worthier and more important, but don’t think that it means other people’s life chances were stunted for only reading Classics or humanities.

I studied fine art for my first degree and have been working in industry as a minerals economist for the past couple of decades Grin

I'm a great believer in education being a process and not just a bunch of facts that you absorb, except perhaps in the hard sciences.

A big problem is excessive specialisation in UK schools at a ridiculously young age, leaving young people with limited choices at 18.

frumpety · 03/10/2018 06:50

Just requested a OU prospectus as a result of reading the last few pages Smile

Does Beowulf count as Norse mythology ?

ShinyElena · 03/10/2018 07:03

Thank you for all the beautiful cat pictures Flowers They have made my day.

woman11017 · 03/10/2018 07:13

Not sure if it counts as Norse myth,frumpety think it is our first english poem and I know it's written in forrin as it's english. Wink

borntobequiet · 03/10/2018 07:24

In my job I normally only see people who struggle with Maths and English, but this year I supervised initial assessments and noticed that quite a few apprenticeship sign ups had very good grades (7, 8, even a 9) which would easily have taken them on to A level courses. I’m nosey so I asked a few of them why apprenticeships and the response was that they had had enough of school and wanted to be doing something. Temperament is as important as academic ability in terms of post 16 educational pathways. The important thing is to ensure that those who do decide to pursue a traditionally academic pathway later in life have the opportunity to do so...I comment as someone whose interest in Mathematics was reignited in later life when working in a betting shop and who subsequently did a degree and trained as a teacher, after abandoning a Maths A level at 17 (and getting kicked out of school, but that’s another story).

frumpety · 03/10/2018 07:28

Oh dear , might request the Arts and Humanities prospectus too Blush

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 03/10/2018 07:46

All this Norse mythology... As a result of catching up on the whole of yesterday’s thread right before bedtime I had a horrible dream with May as Hel ruling over a post Brexit UK underworld. Jörmungandr’s snake body had the head of Jacob Rees- Mogg for part of the dream and Donald Trump’s for the rest!

And I hadn’t even eaten any cheese...

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2018 07:58

If you can stomach the violence, (and good grief it's violent) and you have amazon prime, I recommend Vikings. It's takes a lot of norse mythology and combines certain characters but is also fairly faithful in spirit (if not narrative).

Why do we need lots of people to know about norse mythology even if we only have a few professors?

Because it's our culture and keeping that is worthwhile. Because it helps us understand the present and shape the future. In the case of Norse Mythology the role of women is interesting. They were not simply passive homemakers. There were significant female leaders. "Herstory" existed in Norse culture when only history existed in Christian English culture.

Also the tradition of recording family history so no one was forgotten endured in Iceland - the Iceland sagas record family relationships which have proved invaluable to dna research as it can be used in conjunction with scientific methods. Dna has shown that 67% of female settlers came from the British Isles and 80% of men were of norse origin. The small gene pool on Iceland and the strong family history records mean its been invaluable for medical research.

Norse mythology can help women see that ideas of feminity are very much a cultural thing and are set in certain time periods. Norse mythology because it predates so much of our cultural development is important for that reason.

Much of our language and development of languages owes a lot to vikings. It connects us to other countries. Modern Icelandic is closest to norse, but Danish, English, Norwegian, Swedish and German all take from it. The main thing that happened to English was the "grant vowel shift".

I guess it depends on what you view as important and not. History has a greater chance of surviving the more people who know it and value it. Some people dismiss it as "useless knowledge". I'm not one of them.

Not when Norse mythology is incredibly valuable to modern day Iceland and that heritage has helped with identifying Dna markers for things like alzheimers.

Just because you study something it doesn't mean you have to work in that field. The stuff you learn might help a cross pollenisation of ideas and values and beliefs within completely unrelated fields. This helps move those field forward in ways that would not have been envisaged if we only had vocationally related degrees.

I do think modern day degrees are failing a lot of people because they have become a substitute for lived experience and broaden horizons in other ways, but I do think a strong grounding in the arts and humanities is enormously valuable too. I think my argument would be that universities need to engage more with the workplace in general instead of having a culture that is totally separate from the reality of the outside world. It's not setting up kids with skills to cope outside their comfort zones. (jazz hands Ffs). Instead the tendency is leaning towards people who struggle with this pushing the rest of society to bend to its demands. If done too aggressively and in a way which is ridiculous and too far removed from the practicalities of the real world, it'll result in a huge backlash. Probably along class lines and anti-University / intellectual in nature. Because it demonstrates a contempt for lived experience and practical understanding. A cultural fracture if you will.

Anyway I'm rambling but my point is Norse mythology rocks and is relevant to a large number of people. It's not as niche as you think.

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BlueEyeshadow · 03/10/2018 07:59

❤ Philippa Somerville... Sorry, as you were!

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2018 08:01

Oh and large parts of Westminstenders wouldn't exist but for a 'useless' media degree.

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SingingBabooshkaBadly · 03/10/2018 08:09

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/oct/02/never-return-teach-england-refuge-abroad

In the UK she worked 65 to 70 hours a week as the head of an outstanding infants’ school in Norfolk, where 90% of the children came from the poorest 10% of postcodes in the county.

She says: “We had very limited resources. If you have a child with significant behaviour challenges because of childhood trauma, you need access to a clinical psychologist. For example, there was a child we worked with tirelessly to keep in school, to keep him safe. He absolutely needed specialist support but children’s mental health services said they were taking only life-threatening cases.”

Over the next 10 years, it is expected that international schools will require up to 230,000 more teachers to meet staffing needs – 145,000 of them will be recruited from the UK, ISC Research predicts. If so, according to Schools Week, international schools could snap up more than half of all the UK’s trainee teachers over the next 10 years to meet their targets

Mrsr8 · 03/10/2018 08:10

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

missclimpson · 03/10/2018 08:56

Apologies if this has been posted before, but it is an interesting long read about the stereotyping of migrant Brits in Europe.
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/10/01/long-read-lets-ditch-the-stereotypes-about-britons-who-live-in-the-eu/

Peregrina · 03/10/2018 08:58

Ha, just wrote a long post on how course fees have increased, and lost it. So I will be a bit less long winded this time. For many of us, £500 we might need to think about but will be able to find, £4000 means it's out of the question.

As I implied, for the likes of Johnson, Deadwood Redwood, Grease-Smug, and the other millionaire's in May's cabinet, this is just small change.

woman11017 · 03/10/2018 08:59

Couldn't afford uni even with a loan Sad
Irish passport is worth 10 degrees now though MrsR Smile Flowers

James Patrick has just brought the 'day' forward from Jan 29th to Oct 18th.

1tisILeClerc · 03/10/2018 09:01

A brilliant primary school teacher when I was 10 inspired me to develop the subject I have been doing for the last 50 years. Another, in the 5th year of secondary 'boosted' it a bit more, although 'academically' I have underachieved in CONVENTIONAL terms. My work now largely consists of 'randoms' from around the world calling me to go and fix problems.
Teaching, at least the early years should be to explore everything and find your 'direction' then wind up your clockwork and set you off.
Truthfully I couldn't really care about Brexit but it is impacting my life and I need to be prepared.
None of your cats are as 'nice' as mine, sorry. Sadly she is left behind in England.

Mrsr8 · 03/10/2018 09:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mrsr8 · 03/10/2018 09:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 03/10/2018 09:20

When probability of no deal goes to 99%. FOM ban in place. Repeal Act in place. Civil Contingency Act in place.

frumpety · 03/10/2018 09:22

Oh heck I hadn't got as far as fee's , thought I might go in at the very beginning with a computer course which is free and then move on to an access module. Although they do offer a vocational module which would be really useful to my field and I might be able to get some funding for it if I ask the right people really nicely Smile

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