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Brexit

Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2018 23:25

The key phrase that was once parroted by all the lead Brexiteers, and repeated by their social media followers.

BUT curiously, it seems that those who once said it with such conviction seem to be backing away from it.

Take a lot around at who is saying it, and who no longer seem to be. Certainly not with the same force.

May, alone, seems to have decided to nail herself to the mast of No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal in her post Salzberg Toddler Strop. She seemed to be announcing that in practice No Deal was now official government policy, because the EU weren’t playing ball. It wasn’t an abandonment of Chequers but it seemed close to it.

But who else is still saying it? It would seem its only the die hards on twitter and the Nigel Farage / Arron Banks camp.

Not people with tangible power. Not people who have to actually vote on the matter. Apart from Theresa.

David Davis who at one point seemed to be saying it every other day, now seems - along with Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson - to have moved to a Canada Plus position. They don’t seem to be anywhere near so enthusiastic about a No Deal. The ERG as a whole largely seems to be backing off the idea, though if it happened, they probably wouldn’t be too upset. They just they are starting to see more risk than even than even they would like to hazard as a first choice, contained within No Deal. When No Deal is starting to be perceived as too risky for disaster capitalists, you might start to pay attention.

But nope. Not Theresa.

Theresa has very firmly got it into her head that this is her ‘Iron Lady’ moment. The rhetoric about not being for turning, is deliberately evocative to a certain group. She’s trying to get a deal like Thatcher got with the CAP from the EU. Except we’ve been there and done that and politically is that even an option for the EU to do that in our current political climate with Trump and the Rise of the Authoritarians.

May’s previous track record, also points to her stubborness going above and beyond the point where it is sensible - or even sane - to continue to pursue. She is pig headed to the point of spite. She takes things personally when things going against her. In the Home Office she took cases to appeal which defy all sense of logic and public interest purpose. Its been up to the courts to tell her no in, no uncertain terms before she has eventually stopped. And in some cases she ignored this. Its petty, its arrogant and right now it's a clear and present danger to the national interest.

The Cabinet who have remained loyal to May up to this point, are also starting to recognise the danger. The Times has reported that Raab, Gove, Hunt and Javid are in this camp and May can not necessarily rely on them. They are said to be leaning towards the ERG position.

The problem being that the DUP seem to be going in the opposite direction in leaning towards a softer Brexit. They label both Chequerers and Canada as unworkable. The reality of the border is kicking in, in the circle that matters. The DUP can not ignore nor underestimate the potential for rising support for a United Ireland.

Theresa as a committed Unionist is now very much at odds with the DUP.

May also is facing rebellion for a reported 40 MPs over Canada, according to Amber Rudd. Again they are pushing for a softer option.

In the background is the revised labour policy which now supports a People’s Vote, if they can’t force a General Election. They also won’t support a deal for May. It's something of a fudged position with limited effect, but it's a move to a softer position than previously. Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer, also is alleged to have challenged the leadership by saying Remain would be an option during the Labour conference. McDonnell has very much denied this.

In October 2016, it was said by Donald Tusk that it was a choice between a very Hard Brexit or No Brexit.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37650077

It was also said by the former Polish Finance Minister that Hard Brexit was the easiest political choice for both the UK and Europe.
www.straitstimes.com/opinion/the-political-logic-of-hard-brexit

For everything that has gone on in the last two years, these two points of view seem to be holding up better than the majority that any British commentator has come out with.

And whilst Theresa might now be the only one still saying no deal is better than a bad deal, she is perhaps the closest to the political reality of the dynamics of how everything is going.

Her Salzburg speech, definitely came from a mess of her own making, as she was unable and unwilling to take different political approaches and she lacked pragmatism and flexibility. But at the same time, where she is now is also a result of always being something of a hostage to political circumstance too.

Her speech can also be read as an inadvertent announcement and a warning of ‘accidental no deal’ because she does recognise that all alternative political solutions domestically are impossible to her and she can only be saved by the EU. That’s not taking back control. That’s begging for a way out and for the EU to solve British political problems, which they have always said they would not intervene in.

And isn’t that just the irony.

OP posts:
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10degreestostarboard · 02/10/2018 16:07

Dgrossetti

The trouble is, we only need a very finite number of experts in ancient Norse lesbian myths.

So those jobs go to the ambitious and or from the best universities. Meanwhile the surplus of Norse myth experts end up in retail on approximately minimum wage

SusanWalker · 02/10/2018 16:07

I would prefer tuition fees to be abolished. It's not so simple as a degree being beneficial solely to the student. I benefit from medical degrees when I go to the doctors, science and geography degrees when flood defences are devised, arts degrees when I read a book or watch something interesting on TV, history degrees when I go to a well curated museum.

The problem is when these professions become the right of the middle and upper classes and working class voices are lost. The input of people who have grown up in working class areas is vital in our culture and our civil service. You could argue that if working class people saw themselves better represented throughout British life they wouldn't feel so disenfranchised, and we wouldn't be seeing the rise of the far right, who claim to represent them whilst pointing at a mainly privately educated elite as proof.

DGRossetti · 02/10/2018 16:07

Education should be for our brightest and best not all and sundry

The problem is, you have used not one, but two subjective measures there.

10degreestostarboard · 02/10/2018 16:12

Ok - there should be an entrance exam for university akin to the 11 plus

There cannot be ‘prizes for all’

DGRossetti · 02/10/2018 16:14

The trouble is, we only need a very finite number of experts in ancient Norse lesbian myths.

Except - as I noted - the actual subject is of less import than the fact of a degree level qualification.

Or, to put it another way, I'd happily hire someone with a 1st in ANLM, to work on a project involving attention to detail, unsupervised research, personal time management, and many different formats of information over someone who had studied Novel quantum effects in low-temperature quasi-zero-dimensional mesoscopic electron systems .

When I did recruit for employers a few times, I ignored industry qualifications and degrees, as I found brilliant candidates with neither, and the opposite with both. Luckily I wasn't working for big organisations with rigid rules.

SusanWalker · 02/10/2018 16:14

Correct me if I'm wrong as I did GCSE s but am I right in thinking that prior to GCSE s the system was a lot more flexible? So if you were good at a subject you did O Level, whilst also doing GCE in another subject that wasn't your forte? And this could also be combined with more practical subjects if wanted? I could get on board with a more up to date version of that. So functional maths for example, in stead of GCSE if that's more appropriate.

10degreestostarboard · 02/10/2018 16:17

Dgrossetti

Those kinds of soft skills you cite are valuable... but when everyone goes to university everyone has them

So they get devalued again

Then folk are back in retail jobs

bellinisurge · 02/10/2018 16:18

The alternative to o'level was called CSE. A top grade CSE was seen as broadly equivalent to a C grade at O'level. The minimum pass grade. Anything less than a C at o'level was considered a fail.
I only took O'Levels but I know that once you were down to do CSEs it was difficult to argue that you should be doing O'level. At least in my area.

DGRossetti · 02/10/2018 16:19

Ok - there should be an entrance exam for university akin to the 11 plus There cannot be ‘prizes for all’

There you go again. Education as a "prize" ? If you can't make it, you're a loser ?

The one thing I will concede is that when everyone has a degree, it becomes meaningless. But I refuse to endow a degree with some sort of mystical power above and beyond the fact that it is one - and only one expression of attainment in education and personal growth. Someone who has earned a degree has earned only that - a degree. They certainly haven't earned any more value as a member of society than the person who cares for the elderly on minimum wage.

Liberté ! Egalité ! Grin

DGRossetti · 02/10/2018 16:21

The alternative to o'level was called CSE. A top grade CSE was seen as broadly equivalent to a C grade at O'level. The minimum pass grade. Anything less than a C at o'level was considered a fail.

A cynic might suggest that continued and ongoing fiddling with exam systems makes it impossible to compare any year with any other year.

Cui bono ?

DGRossetti · 02/10/2018 16:22

My DM often said "you go to school, to learn how to learn".

bellinisurge · 02/10/2018 16:23

This was over 30 years ago so I'm sure that anyone who gains has found other ways to gain in the intervening period.

RedToothBrush · 02/10/2018 16:26

Jim Waterson @jimwaterson
Britain's news broadcasters have collectively written to Downing Street to complain that Theresa May has not been available for interview by certain broadcasters during Tory conference. Letter draws comparisons with attempts to exclude specific outlets in Trump's America.

Interesting that the BBC who have been given access have also signed the letter.

This is good.

Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”
OP posts:
10degreestostarboard · 02/10/2018 16:27

Dgrossetti

I’m not saying university is ‘better’ and makes better people

I’m saying it should be academically challenging and for only those capable of it

There should be parity of esteem so that those in trades are not looked down upon

Often the latter will be more financially successful anyway

frankiestein401 · 02/10/2018 16:31

rather than choosing a subject from interest

there's a less obvious impact of this - people doing things they are interested in push the boundaries - scratching an itch is the basis of much innovation

it used to be said that the uk was good at ideas but crap at monetizing them. Rather than addressing the latter, the focus on education being aimed at future earnings means we dismantle the ideas factory.

woman11017 · 02/10/2018 16:31

This is good
Pennies are dropping, probably too late, but they're dropping.
Jon Snow made a statement about being denied access too.

@OFOCBrexit
MUST WATCH!
Brexiteer tells @Femi_Sorry that the EU forces uncontrolled and harmful immigration on the United Kingdom. You can guess what happened next! #CPC18 "Sajid Javid"
twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1047044139077029889

Conservative Party Conference: Where have all the Tories gone?

Senior MPs are addressing near-empty halls at the party conference, while controversial fringe meetings attract crowds

news.sky.com/story/conservative-party-conference-where-have-all-the-tories-gone-11514720

Where have they gone?
#StopBrexit fringe meetings.

10degreestostarboard · 02/10/2018 16:34

Seemed to be enough tories to give Boris racist rapturous applause...

10degreestostarboard · 02/10/2018 16:34

Racist? Bloody autocorrect

woman11017 · 02/10/2018 16:36

In fact it's very good. Collective action is the only one that works. Wink Hope there's more of that coming up.

DGRossetti · 02/10/2018 16:38

10degrees

If you can leave it there, we might have a vague détente Grin ...

One of the problems with the increasing tribalization (sp ?) of politics (apart from the inevitable war) is that often people with the same broad end goal end up dissipating far more on the bunfight about the best way to get there, they rather lose sight of the prize.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/10/2018 16:47

Operation Arse: the secret Tory plot to keep Boris Johnson out of No 10 GrinGrin

From Scotland with love / anxiety:

www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2018/oct/02/operation-arse-secret-tory-plot-keep-boris-johnson-out

woman11017 · 02/10/2018 16:50

Operation Arse Grin

Motheroffourdragons · 02/10/2018 16:58

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 02/10/2018 17:02

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

HesterThrale · 02/10/2018 17:04

It’s hard when you’ve got kids who’ve each been subject to different rates of student loan just by going to Uni at different times.
It seems unfair on the one who’ll end up with a £50000 debt when their older sibling finished with a £15000 one.
But what can you do?

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