Westministenders: Gin O'Clock

[RedToothBrush]

After disaster after Salzberg and a very predictable humilation over the Chequers Deal which the ERG reject, moderate Brexiteers reject, Remainers reject and the EU reject....

May does a press conference...

...which is delayed by a power shortage inside No. 10.

And....

Frans Timmermans is as delusional as Brexiters of he thinks they have 'recognised the facts'!!!

That's Boris preparing the ground for the (unlikely) event he sees a political advantage in switching to Remain

"It wasn't my sin. The woman tempted me, Lord"

It is often very difficult for normal people to cope with fanatics who ignore facts

red I knew of the huge famines - some deliberate evil, some incompetence - in the USSR during the 1930s
I didn't know the name "holodomor," so thanks for that info
(I don;t know if that name has come into more recent use than the time I learned of the famines)

BigChoc - Holodomor is the Ukrainian word - with an accompanying accusation of genocide against Russia (actually the USSR, of which Ukraine was a part, but it's politically handy to call it Russia).

The Soviet famine of 1932-33 - Ukraine was only one of the many regions affected - killed millions of people all over the grain producing regions, from Ukraine in the west to Kazakhstan in the east and including the Volga region, the Central Black Earth Region (north of Ukraine, currently Belarus and westernmost regions of Russia) Ural region, Crimea, western Siberia, and the northern Caucuses. As a child, Mikhail Gorbachev saw half the population of his village (not in Ukraine) die of starvation.

The famine resulted from the 'elimination' of the kulak section of agricultural society and forced collectivisation in the entire grain producing belt, and was exacerbated by new laws requiring passports for internal movement (meaning peasants couldn't migrate to cities and away from doomed regions) and a cruel law punishing peasants for withholding a little grain for themselves and even for searching through fields for grain missed during harvesting.

Kazakhstan had also seen famine in 1919-22, caused by civil war that followed the revolution, and during a period of drought. The Ural and Volga regions were also severely affected by famine in these years but the cause here was flooding plus the civil war, plus the breakdown of rail communication.

The Holodomor was part of a much bigger picture, and although the Ukrainian SSR suffered between 4-7 million deaths, this was part of a bigger total that included millions of ethnic Russians and Kazakhs too, as well as ethnic Russians within the Ukrainian SSR.

The Holodomor name has indeed become more widely used, referring only to the famine in Ukraine, and generally ignoring that it was a widespread event that affected a huge area including Russia and Kazakhstan, in tandem with the recent rise of Ukrainian nationalism.

RTB
There have been attempts to get it catagorised as a genocide but this has been blocked. Make of that what you will by looking at who and why its been blocked...

There are genuine non-political reasons not to class the Ukrainian portion of the famine as a genocide, and the issue is debated by well respected historians all over the world.

The main reason is that the famine was an equal opportunity destroyer of life across far more than the Ukrainian SSR. Just because millions died in a particular former region of a formerly larger political entity doesn't mean genocidal intent was present.

(Wrt the Irish famine otoh, there is evidence of a desire to cull the population, free up land for grazing and recreational hunting, and refusal to offer aid because that would apparently only encourage characteristics widely ascribed to the barely human Irish).

www.drb.ie/essays/ronan-fanning-1941-2017

This is an obit for the late great Professor Ronan Fanning of University College Dublin's Department of History.

An excerpt:
His Fatal Path is a masterpiece, not alone of history and literature, but of clear-sighted wisdom. It explains with dazzling clarity why the Rising and the War of Independence were so important, but crucially it also underlines another reality. The wizard Lloyd George, a Liberal, was constantly looking over his shoulder to ensure that the only concern of his hard-line and threatening Tory allies, that is protecting the unionist cause, would take precedence over all other Irish issues. Bonar Law, Carson and Craig were his three Brexiteers. This meant, as Ronan explained ‑ sometimes to the astonishment of the patriots of this generation - that the struggles of nationalist Ireland always came much further down the British agenda, subsidiary to the more intense dramas of jockeying for domination within the British cabinet. 'Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose'. Those who represent us in the imminent negotiations over Brexit could do a lot worse than take Ronan’s incomparable book with them to London, or Brussels...

There is much truth there, and it applies to those banging their heads against the wall on these threads too.

This article is also very interesting as it casts light on the groundwork in the 1980s that preceded the Anglo Irish Agreement (Garret Fitzgerald and Margaret Thatcher) and the ditching by the US of the policy of keeping its nose out of NI. This was actually the major element that had to be put in place before any progress could be made in NI. I don't think it was necessarily just bombs in the City.

Without the American signal that the government was ready to listen to the Irish lobby there would have been no Good Friday Agreement down the road.

So much for the 'special relationship'.

Following on from yesterday and the annoyance that a populist click per view media outlet with a dodgy record on journalist standards was going to do a speech for the NUJ Black History Month, hosted by the guardian this has happened ...

Mark Di Stefano @ markdistef
Breaking: Chaos at The Guardian this evening after The Canary’s Kerry-Anne Mendoza was announced as the Black History Month speaker. “No one at senior level knew about it,” said a Guardian source.

A second email has gone out citing complaints and there might be a vote...

She didn't take it well.

Kerry-anne Mendoza @ thatMendozawoman
You did it! #BoycottTheGuardian is trending! Well done everyone for making a stand for quality, diverse and honest journalism. Together we're going to rebuild the media. And everyone but the establishment will benefit from it.

Helen Lewis @helenlewis
How are you going to speak at the Guardian offices if you’re boycotting the Guardian?

Jo Maugham @jolyonmaugham
Is there anything more Guardian than the Guardian inviting to speak someone who's boycotting the Guardian?

Amazing

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3378345-Westministenders-No-Deal-is-Better-Than-a-Bad-Deal?watched=1&msgid=81366795#81366795
New thread

No post conference bounce for Labour??

Westminster Voting Intention

CON: 42% (+2)
LAB: 36% (=)
LDM: 11% (=)
UKIP: 4% (-1)

Via @YouGov 24-25th Sep.
Changes w/ 18-29th Sep.

A 6 point lead is CON's largest since 6th June.

Terry Christian @TerryChristian
Just been out in Manchester early doors drinks , met a guy who employs 120 builders for various projects , just had to lay off 34 because of Brexit and has spicked the 34 from those he knew voted Brexit . That's the best news I've heard in ages. It's only short term pain lads

Oooooo harsh.

Catching up from a while back so a few comments from various posts.

Frans Timmermans is perhaps naive rather than delusional, but this statement resonated with me:
None of the people killed in Germany was killed illegally. It was all done according to their law book.”

Then turning to USSR and the Holodomor, a term which I didn't know either. Mathanxiety said, USSR - well Russia. This made me think UK = England (and Home Counties England at that). Which I think informed much of the Leave vote - a feeling of total neglect by the political class miles away.

The question of whether Stalin's policies causing starvation were Genocide, made me think of the Irish famine, and the next post I read is again from Mathanxiety saying that there was evidence of Genocidal intention in that case.

As for the boss having to lay of staff and choosing known Leavers, I suspect he might be on dodgy grounds legally, but I had to laugh, because it fits in nicely with arguments we have seen from Leavers on MN e.g. food rationing will be good for us, not how shameful that we need food rationing outside a time of war, or a disaster like major flooding wiping out crops. (Even then flooding can have man made causes.)

See you on the new thread people.

As for the boss having to lay of staff and choosing known Leavers, I suspect he might be on dodgy grounds legally,

Are political views a protected characteristic ?

Philosophical type views are protected, but not political views. It would be an interesting test case.

No, DGR but I expect even under the Tories there are some rules about who can be laid off first.

But I am not going to feel upset for the Leavers because this is what they wanted, and plenty of Leavers still want us to crash out without a deal.

Philosophical type views are protected, but not political views.

What's the difference ?

But I am not going to feel upset for the Leavers because this is what they wanted, and plenty of Leavers still want us to crash out without a deal.

Of course, when they parade their hungry kids in front of the TV. Shoeless. Thin. Pale. Wan. Holding hands, looking uncertain, nervous. Perhaps with wet cheeks and "help us" in their eyes ....

Then there will be a whole new reason to be less than impressed with the people that caused this who have fucked off long ago.

Suffer little children I believe the bible said. Someone should have told Treeza it's not an aspiration ...

Are political views a protected characteristic ?

Pay attention, Brexiteers. Here's how it's done:

1. intrigued by my own question, I wondered what the actual truth is.
2. Since I was already sitting at a computer with Google, searching for "UK protected characteristics" returned a page of results of which
3. THIS was the top hitter
4. A quick scan of the text - noting it's the governments own version, (so the horses mouth rather than Farages arse) - reveals that protected characteristics are:

age;
disability;
gender reassignment;
marriage and civil partnership;
pregnancy and maternity;
race;
religion or belief;
sex;
sexual orientation.

Now although I am no lawyer, I am guessing that "...or belief" would cover a persons political views, which would therefore make it unlawful/illegal to discriminate on those grounds.

Who would have thought that finding things out could be so easy ?

(That list does make me wonder of lack of religion can be a protected characteristic, and what happens when a religion refuses to acknowledge equality. For example why are women not allowed to be Catholic priests ? They are clearly being discriminated against on basis of a protected characteristic. Why does religion get a free pass ? Let's wait till the trans debate hits the Vatican ....)

Can a god that you don't believe in, persecute you?
I have no wish to discuss this, it's just a random thought.

By the way my week is going leclerc I'm gonna go with yes

{UK nationals would suffer under skills-based immigration, EU tells Javid }
From the Guardian.

I'd have thought philosophical type views/ beliefs would include things like conscientious objection, rather than political party affiliation.

I think 'or belief' is as a poster said, something which needed testing in the courts.

I'd have thought philosophical type views/ beliefs would include things like conscientious objection, rather than political party affiliation.

Ah, but Leave/Remain wasn't really "part affiliation" ? Moreover what about people like me that aren't members of any political party, but who have certain political view ?

(Going back, I thought it was despicable that trades union members were forced to pay money to a political party they might not support - along with closed shops ...)

I thought it was despicable that trades union members were forced to pay money to a political party they might not support

I think legislation changed that. I for one, have always been, and as a retired member still am, in a TU and we have never supported any political party.

I thought belief was largely clarified in EU law as a spiritual belief that didn't fall strictly under religion (usually because of the lack of a god or high power). Is it Buddhism which fails the technical description of religion.

Of course being born into the wrong body does fall into the same thing because of the implication of a soul.

But that opens up questions in its own right if this was ever to be classified as a belief on a par with religion.

Cos arguably imposing it on others who do not share that belief becomes religious persecution too.

Proportionate response which tries to balance competing needs is the point.