Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 11:07

It is specified in the GFA that there can be a referendum on reunification when deemed necessary,
e.g when Republican / Nationalist parties win more votes than Loyalist / Unionist ones, or a post-Brexit border significantly increases the current support in polls for renification

Quite possible that a British govt chooses this option if the Troubles break out and an exasperated British public just want rid of the place - as polls during the previous Troubles showed.
A Labour govt especially might do this

btw, doesn't rUk have the right to leave the Uk in those circs ?
Or must 64 million always be held hostage by fewer than1 million - who subvert our national politics in increasingly sinister ways and who seem to live centuries behind the rest of us ?

I admit personally I have wanted rid of the province since about 1972, when I was old enough to pay real attention and decided NI is toxic to both parties.

So, we may well have the issue that within a few years, the people of NI vote for reunification ... but the RoI don't
As we've seen with Brexit, voting for unicorns doesn't make unicorns possible.

However, iirc, polls in the RoI also indicate a majority want reunification, so - with promises of EU financial support - this might translate to votes in a referendum.

NI has existed despite years of terrorism by Republicans opposed to it, so the threat of Loyalist terrorism - to over ride a democratic vote - wouldn't necessarily work either.
A united Ireland would probably have to be as federal as the US, where massively different systems work for different states

What is clear: there is no easy way out re Brexit, for NI, or their interaction.
Anyone saying "simples" shows their simple-mindedness
(but I remain fed up to the back teeth after decades of NI crap)

frankiestein401 · 16/09/2018 11:11

@dgrosetti.

. It's "correct" but stilted.
am with a french corp and have done a lot of work with european teams and there is very much a 'european English' that all the europeans seem to understand but i sometimes feel the dissonance you reference - on balance i think they're better positioned for 'global english' - we dont actually have any copyright in English after all.

there's also a mumbai english that imho still needs work :)

1tisILeClerc · 16/09/2018 11:33

{Posters blithely proposing a united Ireland as a solution to Brexit really haven't a clue.}
As a Remainer I would say the POSSIBILITY of a united Ireland should be considered. To be 'agreed' upon by the people of ROI and the people LIVING in NI alone, with no voting power exerted by the people of Scotland, England or Wales. It would of course be very complicated and a number of scenarios would need to be carefully worked out.
Although it could be a convenient way to make Brexit happen, any attempt at reunification should be treated as a separate activity. I realise this is a bit like talent show contestants saying they want to see world peace but someone needs to start somewhere and having a state currently within the UK where is is normalised for brutality and a system of 'regulation' outside the rule of law is simply wrong. While many rightly condemn the actions of ISIS and terrorist groups some attention needs to be paid to the goings on in our own back yard.

DGRossetti · 16/09/2018 11:42

am with a french corp and have done a lot of work with european teams and there is very much a 'european English' that all the europeans seem to understand

Well there's business English - I learned bits when I managed an offshore team in ... Mumbai Grin. (I wonder how many UK bosses are aware of it's existence ?)

My point was more about the "flow" of the piece. Surely there's a native speaker that could have "polished" it ?

I've lost count of the number of clearly translated texts (probably Chinese) that could have done with someone rendering them into a more pleasing English. Maybe not essential as the meaning is there. But just to read a bit better.

(mind you, from my long experience with techies, they probably wouldn't notice in the first place. And even if they did, their attempts would be no better ....)

LaurieMarlow · 16/09/2018 12:06

Although it could be a convenient way to make Brexit happen, any attempt at reunification should be treated as a separate activity.

Quite apart from anything and even if everyone concerned wanted it to happen, reunification would take years and be fiendishly complicated.

It's the exact opposite of a quick fix solution.

1tisILeClerc · 16/09/2018 12:12

@Laurie.
Absolutely not a quick fix. I would call 20 years fast.
The GFA was 10 years in the making and was a massive improvement.

TheElementsSong · 16/09/2018 12:22

Goodness, these threads move fast! Thanks for the new thread RTB and I very much agree with your OP summary.

Hazardswan · 16/09/2018 12:35

singing trying to keep up when busy is near impossible. Then you finally catch up and your right it's bleaker than you could imagine 😩

Hope you make it to the march.

UnnecessaryFennel · 16/09/2018 12:46

Placematking

Thanks for a new thread RTB.

DP and I will be marching on the 20th.

Hazardswan · 16/09/2018 12:50

My heart is all warm and fussy knowing so many of you are going 😊

UnnecessaryFennel · 16/09/2018 13:25

I feel pretty hopeless tbh hazard. And a bit paralysed. I don't know what else to do.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/09/2018 13:38

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2018 14:07

You remember the story about David Cameron going to the beach with 10 bodyguards?

My take from that is that many key figures, central to this appalling catastrophe, genuinely cannot believe the complacency, self-willed ignorance and indifference of the UK public - and thus their continuing good fortune.

David Cameron knows that the complete carnage he has wreaked should mean he needs 10 bodyguards. He can't quite believe the UK public hasn't accepted this yet.

Crazy times.

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2018 14:08

I'd be interested in a meet-up thread nearer the time (of the march). It's possible I'll be on my own. 🙂

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 14:09

I am totally confused about Labour Party policy on voting down a deal - I expect they are, too ! 🤦🏻‍♀️

I have read that they would only vote for a deal that doesn't lose SM benefits

So, they might vote for a WA that refers to a future framework like Norway+, even if the WA fudged over issues like FOM and related Articles 112/ 118 / 119

red or any Labour member: any clearer ideas ? Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 14:11

10 ? Shock Bloody hell, I missed that story
What is he expecting Brexit to do to the country Confused

(Unless he's being making rude jokes about Putin and is worried about exotic poisons)

1tisILeClerc · 16/09/2018 14:31

'Who will rid me of this turbulent (politician)'?
Please accept I wasn't there for the original quote.

Peregrina · 16/09/2018 14:42

The impression I get from reading about Labour is that they would vote for Norway +, but otherwise not. The question then is, what happens next?

1tisILeClerc · 16/09/2018 14:42

The prospect of 10 bodyguards in speedos trying to 'hide' a pistol is ,,,, intriguing or were they wearing suits?

DarlingNikita · 16/09/2018 14:51

Thanks Red.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 15:14

Hiding lethal weapons in their budgie-smugglers Hmm

Mrsr8 · 16/09/2018 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/09/2018 15:18

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Hazardswan · 16/09/2018 15:27

In the spirit of hopelessness fennel and motheroffour I contacted my MP again
( after reading your posts) via Gina's EndTheChaos website. This'll be the 3rd time I've contacted my MP without response and I don't expect the labouring bastard to respond this time either.

My thought was just because people ignore you doesn't mean you should ignore yourself or think you (and your families) don't matter. Turning up (whatever that looks like to you march, emailing or talking etc) is important, especially when their not listening because you matter and deserve to have a say even if they don't want you to say it.

Sorry if that's waffle but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's okay to feel hopeless and thank you for carrying on regardless Wine

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 15:36

Party Conferences & European Council (Heads of Govt) mtgs:

LibDems: ongoing - Saturday 15 Sept- Tuesday 18 Sept 2018
Suggestions for any new leader; maybe a Westministender can stand ! Anyone interested ?

Thur 20 Sept European Council mtg on Brexit

Labour: Sunday 23 Sept to Wednesday 26 Sept 2018
Maybe they'll clarify policy on how their MPs shall / should vote
Currently, the country is as confused about this as they are

Conservatives: Sunday 30 Sept to Wednesday 3 Oct 2018
May will probably survive, but it's all about how badly wounded she is
What she says - to save her neck - might slam the coffin lid on any chance of a WA.
The EU may then deliver a polite brush-off to her if she tries to address their October European Council meeting,

SNP: Sunday 7 Oct to Tuesday 9 Oct 2018
No surprises on Brexit expected. 2nd Indie vote later ?

Thur 18 October European Council mtg - NOT on Brexit