The Brexit Arms. The home of friendly chat & laughter.

[surferjet]

Only 1 rule.
No c&p posts a mile long, they’re just boring & no one reads them.
Keep it short, sweet, & to the point.

Peace & Love ❤️🇬🇧❤️

"Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107332

That's a remainer speech, espousing virtually all the leaver arguments - global free trade, sovereignty, anti superstate, although arguing for defence co-operation (the weu)

Buteo

Ever closer union is contained in the preamble to the treaty of Rome

Ever closer union is contained in the preamble to the treaty of Rome

Yes it is.

But that’s not what you quoted at 16:47 today.

Errr, yes it is....

Err, no it isn’t.

Go on then tell me what you think You said i said because this is fast turning into the dullest exchange on mumsnet today...

Come on buteo - where am I going wrong.

I can barely contain the suspense

10degreestostarboard

Nope

Because wto isn’t explicitly seeking ‘ever closer political union’

That was your post at 16:47 today (easy enough for the non idle amongst us to check).

Which is a spectacular misquote of the Preamble to the Treaty of Rome.

But hey ho, facts are sooooo boring.

Spectacular?

No, I don’t think so. But yes, it doesn’t contain the word ‘political’

But the sentiment and words still exists - this is the treaty of Rome

But granted you win pedantic point of the day. Go the bar and claim your free prize of some British pork scratchings and a t shirt emblazoned with ‘I have a Technical Point To Make and Will Prosecute It To Tedious Conclusion’

Hurts to be wrong eh?

And for clarity:

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,

Not a political union. A union of people.

Mine’s a Stella, since you’re buying. Or maybe I’ll push the boat out and have a Duvel.

But that's not the choice is it?

We can have the EU with its political and legal implications, ever closer or otherwise.

Or

We are on our own under WTO rules.

On our own in a world which is globalising rapidly, other countries are forming trading blocks which we can not join.

There is no point saying 'I would stay in the EU if......'. The 'if' isn't there. In or out? In a gang or on our own?

The world will be a cold lonely place for a country that has rejected its regional ties. While others seek to build bridges we are burning our boats.

I'm sorry but I love a technical point. Technical points are what treaties and constitutions are all about.

The general population sweep technical points to one side and look at the broad brush but decisions like this are made up of technical points. They are nerdy and a bit tedious but they actually matter.

And that is why referenda are inappropriate for decisions like this.

If the phrase appears in a - very much - political document and you refuse to believe ‘Union among the peoples’ contains any political overtures then we will have to agree to disagree

My advice would be to order your duvel quickly as once it’s gone, it’s gone...

Well Mousse I can raise the bar a little wth the Preamble to the Treaty of Lisbon:

RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity.

10 you can disagree as much as you like. It doesn’t make your interpretation that it’s a legally binding “Union” correct.

[The] European Council noted that the concept of ever closer union allows for different paths of integration for different countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who do not want to deepen any further.

In fact, make mine a bottle of Nyetimber Tillington. I’m guessing that won’t run out any time soon, unless a Champagne and Prosecco blockade kicks in next March.

Well we can argue semantics but it’s all a bit overtaken by events now in any case.

Happily! :)

It's not really semantics though, is it? The UK is on a downward slide in terms of economy, culture and influence thanks to the mass, shadily financed microtargetting of the exact disinformation you've been peddling, so the fact that a chunk of the population was fooled long enough for them to vote their rights away two years ago is a bit of a big deal.

I mean, hurrah - we can all look forward to this being the new normal:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/poland-polarization/568324/

I wonder what conspiracy all the British youth will have to mouth to prove their loyalty in 10 years? Perhaps they all need to swear that all the major car companies were going to build new factories after Brexit, but that nasty Theresa May betrayed the UK and so now they're all gone. (It will have to be suitably batshit to demonstrate loyalty, won't it?)

If you want to get into serious nerd territory the key term is 'subsidiarity'. All decisions should be taken as locally as possible. The central authority should have subsidiary function to local governance.

Meaning the central governance of the EU works to support the national governments. Only making central decisions when they have to ensuring national governments retain power.

The devil is indeed in the detail.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-45481485

Real wages rising...

Moose - yes that is nerd territory!

But why does the eu need to have its own ‘central government’ in the first place? After all, we already have a government... admittedly, they aren’t doing that well but still!

Finally, but not by much and nowhere near what they need to be. That's because - surprise - it's not been skilled immigrants keeping them down, but tight control of payrises and ever-inflating executive pay. Yes, UK bosses have always had control of hiring and wages. Yet another thing we've not had to leave the EU to gain.

But keep trying to make any tiny stat look okay against the bigger, sliding picture. And try to make out that leaving the EU will somehow be okay, not not make everyone poorer. I do understand why you need to try to justify all of this.

Some decisions need to made centrally in relation to trade. Standards need to be set to ensure a level playing field. Any trading block makes central decisions.

Subsidiarity means only decisions that need to be made centrally are. So when people complain about the EU changing laws this is true in relation to trade regulations but not true in relation to criminal law because the EU does not need to and, because of the principle of subsidiarity, no wish to.

Pineapple - you seem to take all this very personally...

You aren’t cardinal at you? :)

I know I know - you have to take this seriously because fire, because pestilence, 4 horsemen of the apocawotsit, because Everyone Will Die Immediately etc etc