The Brexit Arms. The home of friendly chat & laughter.

[surferjet]

Only 1 rule.
No c&p posts a mile long, they’re just boring & no one reads them.
Keep it short, sweet, & to the point.

Peace & Love ❤️🇬🇧❤️

I know all this stuff. I think it's either a price worth paying or a difficult one to extract the UK from without a lot of economic pain. Which no Brexiteer has dared to admit.

As a member of NATO, each member country agrees that if any one of them is attacked, then all the other countries will deem that to be an attack against them and will each take the actions they deem necessary to assist the one that was attacked. (Not allowed to copy and paste on this thread, but have a look at the Article 5 that the NATO member countries have signed up to - see you can learn stuff in this pub too ).

Isn't that ceding a degree of sovereignty, given that we signed up to it?

And we are supposed to pay in to it far more than we contribute(d) to the EU (2% of GDP versus 0.7% GDP)

We're in Afghanistan because America was hit by a Taliban government in Afghanistan on 9/11. The only time NATO countries have come to the aid of a member who was attacked.
Seems like a pretty big legal obligation to me.

Prettybird - nato article 5 is an extension of our collective defence arrangements and had its origins against Russia

It gives smaller nations the same protection as larger ones. It is what it says on the tin: no more, no less

The eu on the other hand...

Was every nato nation in Afghanistan? Was article 5 invoked?

Yes. Every NATO member.

WTO is only TRADE (hint it's in the name). So no armies or fighting involved.
The accession countries are given a set of rules to examine and decide whether they want to be 'in the club' or seek vetos etc which are discussed by their own governments in a democratic way. Each country retaining their own sovereignty of course. The rules vary from country to country and the financial burden and relief takes account of this. There was an element of 'sleight of hand' when Greece joined the EU and their finances were found to be a little lacking (they weren't collecting all the tax they should have, to begin with).
Still, 10degrees knows all of this anyway.

I’m not sure the comparison is valid - whichever way you cut it the sheer range and depth of eu governance utterly transcends anything either the wto or nato expect from members

I actually agree with that @10degreestostarboard . But do you accept that leaving it is really hard and will cause a great deal of difficulty for lots of people. And that the Leave campaign didn't explain or admit this?

If NATO is an extension of our "collective defence arrangements" wouldn't an EU army ( which I don't believe is planned) fall into exactly the same category.

Either ceding power is right or it isn't. We have a treaty with NATO to which we are bound why would a treaty with an EU defence force be different?

Rather than cede power to EU rules over trade ( an organisation where we get a say) we cede it the WTO rules.

The power is given to another body in any of the scenarios.

Bellinsurge

I agree with you

I think neither campaign was totally honest. We get the politicians we deserve

I believe voting remain was an honest and sensible course of action. Yes, I did mean to type remain!

Mousse

Yes but I think we are starting to conflate different things which is unhelpful in the debate

Nato pivots us toward the us (who, incidentally, bear an unfair level of its budget). The eu conversely would start from a very low defence base because countries like Germany have underinvested for years

@10degreestostarboard -well that's a bit of a positive if we have a bit of agreement.
Have a glass of Yorkshire wine- it's delicious now and then.

Bellinsurge

Have a chink - happy consensus for a change! :)

German underinvestment in defence is entirely understandable and was a very sensible decision for obvious reasons.

I think the point is in the modern world we have to cede power to other bodies, we can not be totally independent legally or politically. Outside bodies will make decisions about our country.

I would like to have a say in how those 'other bodies' are run and organised. I would like the U.K. to be able to vote on and influence those decisions.

NATO and the WTO vs the EU? The EU every time because it is a democratic institution.

Mousse

Can’t argue your logic. Maybe the heart of the Brexit debate centres on whether any country can truly be free of internationalism in an interconnected world. And if so, to what extent.

Is the nation state a 20th century relic gone forever? I don’t know but my gut feeling is no: hence my leave vote. But I may be wrong.

You are.

HTH...

@10degreestostarboard - if you can stand it, the 3Blokesinapub on YouTube discuss this very point with a Canadian (ahem) expert.

Good summary Daddy, by the way.

The nation state will continue to exist. However, globalisation and the interconnected nature of modern geo politics means we will become more interdependent.

Regional trading blocks are being developed all over the world. Other countries are making local alliances and building strength through unity. To leave a successful regional trading block now as the rest of the world follows Europe's lead is utter madness.

Moose

If the eu had retained its original brief as a trading bloc I would wholeheartedly agree with you

But Mouse, it's not a regional trade block any more is it.

Because wto isn’t explicitly seeking ‘ever closer political union’

The Treaty of Rome does not state that.

Neither nato nor the wto seek to hold sovereignty over their member states.

Membership of NATO requires members to go to war if another member is attacked - that’s quite a significant impact on sovereignty.

2/10, must try harder.

If the eu had retained its original brief as a trading bloc I would wholeheartedly agree with you

The EU, as far back as the ECSC, was never “just a trading bloc”.

re 'ever closer union', 'eu army' etc., what would be in the uk's best interest:
being outside an EU that has become a superstate with armed forces and nuclear capability dwarfing that of the UK

being inside the EU and being able to work against and if necessary veto the creation of said superstate and armed forces.

(not that i believe the eu27 would ever achieve this, just that it seems to be a concern of some leavers)