An open letter to leavers

[LoveInTokyo]

Dear Leavers

I’m sorry that David Cameron offered us a referendum and promised to respect the outcome, whatever it was.

Unfortunately, he was fucking with you.

He promised that referendum when he didn’t think he stood a cat’s chance in hell of getting a majority, and never thought he’d actually have to deliver on it. When he got his surprise majority, he made a big show of going to Brussels and pretending to negotiate with the EU to get us a “better deal”. Unfortunately, he already knew perfectly well that the UK already had a better deal than any other country in the EU, and that they were not going to bend over backwards to get us to stay. So he made a big show of negotiating and then tried to pretend that he had done something meaningful. He then went through the motions of holding a referendum, half-heartedly campaigning to remain. He did absolutely no contingency planning, partly because he never believed that leave would actually win, and partly because he already knew that he had no intention of staying to deal with the fallout if they did. That’s why he resigned the day after the referendum and waltzed off, whistling a merry tune.

He played a high risk game of poker with our money, and lost.

I understand that many of you feel defensive about your decision and dislike being labelled “thick” by angry remainers. As a remainer myself, I feel saddened and frustrated that none of you seem able to articulate any benefits that will actually come out of Brexit. But at this stage, I would quite happily accept that there will be no benefits, and settle for damage limitation. Unfortunately none of you seem able to explain how we limit the damage either.

We cannot leave the single market and customs union without there being a hard border in Ireland, which will put people’s lives at risk. We cannot leave the single market and customs union without severely damaging most sectors of the economy, which would cause untold hardship for millions of people living in the UK. I realise that remaining in the single market and customs union would make leaving the EU pointless, but it is the only way to limit the damage.

The government has made almost no progress towards getting a workable deal in place, and time is running out. We don’t have the infrastructure in place to ensure that supply chains of essential food and medicine will not be disrupted after Brexit day. We don’t have a plan to ensure that planes will still be able to take off and land, or that satnav will still work. We do not have any trade deals lined up. We simply do not have time to do any of these things.

Dear leavers, you do not have solutions to any of these problems, and more importantly, neither do Theresa May, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Andrea Leadsom, Daniel Hannan, Jeremy Corbyn, Kate Hoey or any of the people who claim to think Brexit is the right choice for the UK.

A no-deal Brexit is unthinkable. It is not an option.

I realise that many of you will feel betrayed if we do not get the kind of Brexit you want. But to be honest, you’re going to feel betrayed even if you do get the kind of Brexit you want, because it will be unimaginably shit. This is not "project fear", it is "project reality".

The government has a duty to act in the best interests of the country as a whole. It’s not good enough to lay the blame at David Cameron’s door and say he held the referendum so we have to respect the vote. David Cameron has been out of office for two years. It is now plainer than ever that leaving the EU is a terrible idea, and there is still time to put the brakes on and not go through with it. If the government goes through with this when they could put a stop to it, they cannot continue to blame David Cameron and claim that their hands were tied. They are not.

It is time for Theresa May to do the decent thing and say, “I’m sorry, I know it’s what the people voted for, but it simply can’t be done without causing a totally unacceptable amount of harm to the country. And I have a duty of care towards everyone, not just the 51.8% who voted leave.”

LoveInTokyo that's way above my pay grade, but I would not but up any hard border, leave it to the EU if they feel the need and take are chances with the WTO it work take years to sort out, they would charge us then we would appeal and so on and in a couple to three years how knows where we will all be.

But if you want the uk to end up in trouble much the same way as Zimbabwe 's going, then lets end denocracy

LouiseCollins28 I appreciate your 'hope' that we won't be revisiting the 'Troubles' either on the island of Ireland or on the 'mainland' but hope did not work then and won't work going forward. It is indeed "very sensitive'.

Artesia you are conflating what is within an individual' states authority and what is an EU wide legislative requirement. I accept that you may not be filled with 'massive confidence and security' but our political negotiators seem very keen to want to keep close security ties with our EU neighbours.

Rosstac what is it about Zimbabwe's current election that causes you to draw any comparisons? I gather that Ms Hoey is out there 'opining' on the exercise (or not) or a democratic vote.

I'm crossposting this because I've noticed a big gap in the way some leavers talk about democracy, and the excuses they make for the outcomes the government is actually going to deliver. Rosstec, your view on this would be really helpful to me.

Point 1: Not following through on the referendum would undermine democracy. That's bad.

Point 2: The people who campaigned for Leave had turned out to be really dodgy, and their campaign both broke the law and is subject to an ever-widening inquiry into foreign powers using social media and other tech platforms (like forums) to spread disinformation aimed at influencing voters and get elections to turn out a certain way. (There is now shedloads of evidence on this.) A comparable investigation into the Remain campaign hasn't turned up anything.

Point 3: Whenever point 2 is raised, there is always someone who announces that politicians lie in campaigns so it doesn't matter anyway.

So, taken all together this appears to mean that for some Brexit supporters "democracy" is a system in which elections are characterised by flagrant disinformation, but that's okay because voters know that they should vote for the shinest pack of lies and not worry about what happens afterwards, because as long as their pack of lies won then the outcomes don't matter at all.

In fact, trying to hold politicians to their promises or make them change their plans if they can't deliver on them is naive AND against democracy. Because all that matters is the lies voted for on the day, which gives a the government power to do whatever they want no matter how it turns out for the voters.

And voters don't care about tangible outcomes, they only care about dogma and if their dogma isn't possible they'll happily take on any level of hardship rather than actually have to learn something. Showing them that the dogma doesn't work actually makes them violent.

Have I got that right?

If we as a nation respected democracy, we would respect the Good Friday Agreement.

The people of NI (71.12%) and Ireland (94.39%) voted for it.

It precedes the Brexit referendum and probably makes the whole Brexit farce illegal.

@MissTerryPratchett

You asked a while back "will being Norway satisfy those who voted to leave?" Honestly, I think it will satisfy some but by no means all.

When I said that the UK government essentially has to choose a Brexit outcome between "Norway like" and "Canada like" and justify it's choice to the electorate I didn't say it would be an easy sell, it won't! whatever they choose.

On respecting democracy, we are where we are, we have the press we have and people are perfectly at liberty to ignore parts of the press they don't like and/or set up competitors. They do, HuffPost being one example. The campaigns for Remain and Leave were both well funded and able to raise any issue they wanted to.

Artesia you are right there are hard right factions in some European countries that are a cause for concern. In the EU we were a significant influencer (not a power but influence), it was the UK that helped set up the European Court of Human Rights. Some countries respected our influence in this field there is some positive legacy from our stance in WW2.

The EU has rules about what its members can do and not do - Capital punishment for example.

While in the EU we could actively work to moderate extreme right influences. Out of the EU we have very little influence.

Ok you say but that doesn't matter because we will not be in the EU anymore. However, history shows very clearly that we are drawn into European conflicts even if we don't want to be.

To paraphrase 'when Europe sneezes the U.K. catches a cold".

By leaving the EU we make the situation worse and our ability to influence the outcome weaker.

"Open letter to leavers" - we are ALL leavers. That was the outcome of the referendum. A wrongly-conceived and disgracefully conducted referendum, but make no mistake - we are all leavers.

There should have been clear parameters for the referendum - e.g. minimum turnout, minimum margin. And voters should have been presented with access to the arguments from economists and others on both sides of the debate, so that they had proper evidence on which to base their decision; instead of the unedifying kindergar6ten behaviour and manipulation of the media that we had.

But, make no mistake - we ARE all leavers, whichever way we might have voted.

artesia - most of the examples you cite are individual nations operating according to their own laws and exercising their sovereignty, free to do so, because the EU does not control all of their laws. Of course I find those instances abhorrent, but they don't stem from EU policy.
The EU is not on the brink of financial collapses - overall its economies are experiencing strong growth at the moment. It doesn't get everything right - of course it doesn't - but, yes, I feel much safer within it than outside, especially with our current government.

mishappening - Alec Salmond asked for minimum thresholds etc to be incorporated into the legislation for the referendum. 'No need' cried the Tories airily - it's only advisory and we will not be acting upon the result.
And not one of them corrected David Cameron when he took it upon himself to tell the public that it would be binding.
And not one of them reminded each other that they had promised in their 2015 manifesto to keep the UK in the single market despite holding this referendum.

Dear leave voters,
I solemnly swear to come on MN and say I was wrong if it turns out well. 2 years. Do you promise to come on to MN if it goes to shit and admit you were wrong? 2 years.
P.s. knock on my door and ask for extra food I might have stored and you can sod off.

All disgraceful akerman; but all water under the bridge now - we are leaving whatever we might think/want/dream.

I got bored reading it about halfway into the 3rd paragraph.

LoveInTokyo that's way above my pay grade, but I would not but up any hard border, leave it to the EU if they feel the need and take are chances with the WTO it work take years to sort out, they would charge us then we would appeal and so on and in a couple to three years how knows where we will all be.

Rosstac, that's not really good enough.

Leaving the single market and customs union but failing to put up a hard border would be against WTO rules, for a start. (You know, the same WTO rules leavers think we can "fall back on".)

You cannot simply not put up a border - it would be a smugglers' paradise. Different rules applying on each side, and absolutely no checks to make sure that the things and people crossing from one side of the border to the other are allowed to be on the side they're crossing to? It won't work.

So.

Remaining in the single market and customs union, or hard border in Ireland.

Pick one, please.

All disgraceful akerman; but all water under the bridge now - we are leaving whatever we might think/want/dream.

Yes, OK, we're leaving. Got it. Where are we going?

I just cannot get my head round someone who on a sunny Wednesday afternoon decides that top priority for today is to write an open letter about Brexit to put in Mumsnet.

It's called freedom of speech in a democracy, something I thought you leavers held in high regard.

LoveInTokyo I told you my answer earlier, I don't see why we should be held to ransom of the border, As obviously there has never been any smuggling along the border, I would not put up any border and let the EU take us to wto, if they wont agree a free trade deal by then, what have we got to lose

We are not being held to ransom about the border. BeLeavers didn't think about it when they voted. Remain got a majority in NI. Why do you think that was?

Mishappening And that is democracy, we don't all agree with every decision made by the government, but we have (should) abide by it

bellinisurge I cant answer for every persons decision, I am sure they had their reasons just as everybody else did,

Come on, @Rosstac . Why was there a majority for Remain in NI. Which means both Unionists and "republicans " voted Remain. Together. In the majority. Maybe they knew something you didn't bother to learn before voting.

And before you trot out some tedious bollocks about not knowing what is in someone's heart - it is totally unprecedented for there to be such unity in NI. Apart from over the Good Friday Agreement.

bellinisurge I wouldn't like to second guess why people do what they do,
I sure the government had it all in hand before giving a binary vote to the public, I cant imagine what made you want to vote remain

bellinisurge I still don't see why the majority who voted should be held to ransom over the border, TM saidshe will not put up a border, let the EU take us to court, if its got to that stage there will be know good will left with the EU

I just cannot get my head round someone who on a sunny Wednesday afternoon decides that top priority for today is to write an open letter about Brexit to put in Mumsnet.
😂😂😂

What a patronising remoaner 'letter', filled with a big pile of flaming doggy do.

A hard Brexit is of course a valid option.
TMs soft Brexit is also an option, lets see which one the EU choose.
Only 34% of people voted to remain in the EU.
N.Ireland border is not an issue because all sides have said that even in a hard Brexit scenario there would not be a hard border, so it's a non issue.
It was very clear during the referendum what we where voting for, there is a lot of revisionist propaganda going on as remainers continue to try and subvert Brexit or make sure the UK fails when we leave so we are forced to crawl back begging.

Remainers do not believe there is a 'solution' to Brexit so any solution a Brexiteer might give will never be good enough. And what some randoms on the internet says will have zero impact on the governments Brexit policy. So whats the point other than to stoke up hatred?

If we are not allowed to leave the EU now then we will never be allowed to leave. We will essentially become a state of the EU and any semblance we have of Independence will be gone. I dont think many remainers knew what they were voting for when they decided where to put their cross.

239 days and 5 hours until Brexit starts