Westminstenders: In the Brexit Lane

[RedToothBrush]

I honestly couldn't think of a better starter to the thread than simply just this tweet

Robert Peston @ peston
We’ve got an official opposition tearing itself apart over antisemitism, the founder of the EDL running rings around the judiciary and a government negotiating a Brexit plan that its own MPs and ministers tell me is dead. When will we pull ourselves together, as a nation?

But don't worry, your blue passport will get you an extra special long wait at passport control. And no deal could lead to continued freedom of movement anyway. Something for everyone in there.

I suppose what I’m saying is there should have been an overt message from the government to say ‘They are here because we needed them and we wanted them and the economy would have likely gone down the pan without them. The EU did not make us do this’.

Sorry. Feeling especially downcast about this whole debacle today. It’s making me a bit ranty ...

I suppose what I’m saying is there should have been an overt message from the government to say ‘They are here because we needed them and we wanted them and the economy would have likely gone down the pan without them.

Like we did with the Windrush generation ...

I suppose what I’m saying is there should have been an overt message from the government to say ‘They are here because we needed them and we wanted them and the economy would have likely gone down the pan without them. The EU did not make us do this’.

What evidence is there that the UK economy would have gone down the pan without immigrants from the EU accession countries? The country was already going through one of it's longest periods of uninterrupted economic growth at that point.

Sometimes there seem to be a veneration of EU immigrants on here that is almost as irrational as the denigration of them by some leavers.

What evidence is there that the UK economy would have gone down the pan without immigrants from the EU accession countries? The country was already going through one of it's longest periods of uninterrupted economic growth at that point

That period of uninterrupted growth would have come to an end as the UK ran out of skills and people - not just from the EU but also from the non-EU countries, from whom immigration is far higher than from the EU.

As it is, the end is indeed nigh on 29th March if the UK kicks out 3 million valued workers (or makes it so difficult to stay that they decide to leave anyway).

As it is, the end is indeed nigh on 29th March if the UK kicks out 3 million valued workers (or makes it so difficult to stay that they decide to leave anyway)

I wonder how much trade displaced workers will take with them ? Especially as they will be able to sell stability in their new EU27 role, compared to the chaos the UK company they left behind can offer.

[[https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/the-deaths-they-dont-count-15021204.amp?utm_source=POLITICO.EU&utm_campaign=0791e54664-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_13_05_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-0791e54664-190296737&__twitter_impression=true
The deaths they don't count]]

Investigative journalism as it should be. An article by Jen Williams of the Manchester Evening News about what happens when people die but are invisible to bureaucracy because they live on the streets.

This is the face of inhumanity in 2018.

People without voices. People who no one cares if they live or die. People just seen as a problem on the streets like vermin. Apparently sympathy for the homeless declines significantly if the public are made aware that drugs are involved - without asking which came first the drugs or the homelessness.

There was another BBC local news article on the tv just last week about how Manchester's spice problem is getting worse. There are now turf wars breaking out in the city centre. The police were saying that people were hiding weapons in Piccadilly Gardens because of it. One comment in the section that it was a incident waiting to happen with a passerby getting caught in the middle of such a fight and it then becoming a national scandal. For those of you unfamiliar with Manchester, Piccadilly Gardens is a green space right in the centre of the city, with a play ground and mini market with street food venders. Its supposed to be a family and community space, but i'll be honest, in the last 18 months its felt less safe and edger with lots of spice zombies or dealers around. I've tried to avoid it more recently, before I even knew about this as a particular issue. I know other cities have similar issues but Manchester's spice problem is particularly acute.

Anyway I'm a bit AWOL atm, because between Corbyn and Johnson I feel like every time I log onto twitter, its stepping into an authoritarian leaders dream. And frankly until there's some meaningful Brexit news, I don't think I want my brain to rot from it.

There was another BBC local news article on the tv just last week about how Manchester's spice problem is getting worse.

Prohibition has failed. It failed in 1971, when it was introduced. As long as there was money to throw at it, you could hide the failure. As soon as the money for policing dried up ... well, here we are.

Bottom line is you aren't going to stop people wanting to get high by making it illegal. You can mitigate and minimise harm done. But that requires a pragmatic, rather than ideological stance. And, as noted since whenever, the UK doesn't do evidence.

Remember the Psychoactive substances act ? (Doesn't seem the BBC does ...) That was supposed to solve the synthetic high epidemic ? All it did was make a tit of the law by banning church incense. Or rather making church incense a psychoactive substance, and having to have a gentlemans agreement not to prosecute. Now that is the sort of lawmaking we need more of. Muddled, confusing, and open to all sorts of establishment abuse.

I wonder how much trade displaced workers will take with them

Allowing for a whole range of workers, from unskilled to highly skilled, if 3 million workers (and their families) left the country with an average of only £10,000 each, that would leave a £30 billion hole in the UK economy.

I wrote to my MP drawing his attention to the fact that YouGov polls shows that there has been a huge swing of over 100 constituencies which have now changed from Leave to Remain. This is his reply..

(Incidentally my constituency has always been remain. He is not.)

"I note your comments about the local vote, but the referendum was a national, not a local exercise in direct democracy. I suspect the majority of people in this country – no matter how they voted – believe the outcome should be respected. Most people understand that votes do not always go their way.

I strongly believe we should respect the outcome of the biggest democratic event our country has ever known. Failure to do so would, I believe, cause an irreparable breakdown in the relationship between people and the authorities, and would usher in a new era of extreme politics. Those now calling for a second referendum (a minority’s of voters, according to the most surveys) are doing so because they hope it will yield a different result. It is an attempt to reverse the decision that they do not approve of. I do not blame them for continuing to campaign, but it is not something I personally can support."

How can this be democracy?

And so we return, with tiresome predictability, to the question I keep posing.

What is the shelf life of the referendum ?

we're inching towards 2 1/2 years now - half the life of a parliament. And in the 70s, some vegetables lasted longer than a parliament ....

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6052111/Supermarket-giants-warn-no-deal-Brexit-force-food-prices-12-cheese-beef.html

Supermarket giants warn a no-deal Brexit could force food prices up by 12 per cent if EU slaps tariffs on cheese and beef
Price of cheese, beef and chicken could be pushed up by 44% without trade deal
UK would rely on World Trade Organisation rules, but this would mean big tariffs
Supermarket boss: 'This is so serious we're talking about civil unrest on streets'

(contd)

Supermarket giants warn a no-deal Brexit could force food prices up by 12 per cent if EU slaps tariffs on cheese and beef

Mis-information from the Mail's headline? Surely not.

We've all been debating this for long enough to know that the EU does not slap tariffs on imports coming into the UK. It is the WTO rules that would oblige the UK to impose a tariff - as a result of the UK's own decision to leave the EU and rip up the 750 trade and industry agreements that the UK has with the rest of the world.

But the fact that it's from the Mail stable - which generally has been telling readers that Brexit is brilliant - which piqued my interest.

I know the MoL has differing editorial standards, but even so ...

The real question is whether that 10 -12% is on top of the 10-20% we've seen already ?

The real question is whether that 10 -12% is on top of the 10-20% we've seen already ?

You know the answer is yes.

"the biggest democratic event our country has ever known."
If your MP says stupid incorrect shit like this, he/she is an idiot.

Lonelyplanetmum keep a copy of that email - it can be used in evidence at their eventual treason trial.

Sometimes it's the only thing that keeps me going - the more evil, anti democratic shit they spout ... one day their own words will hang them (if a starving, angry mob hasn't done it first).

What evidence is there that the UK economy would have gone down the pan without immigrants from the EU accession countries?

NotDavid If we didn’t need those immigrants why, in your opinion, did the government of the day choose not to impose restrictions put in place by other EU members?

I think the view is that they wildly miscalculated, SingingBabooshkaBadly (love the username and the song by the way ). Here’s a long read article from the Guardian about it:

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

Thanks for the link mybrainhurts. Will give it a read. I know studies at the time underestimated the numbers, but it wouldn’t have taken a genius to work out that whilst the doors to most other EU nations remained closed, there would be vast numbers of potential migrants to the U.K. from less affluent nations.

And either way, still wasn’t the EU’s doing.

I think my rendition of the song might cure you of your love for it! Sadly, lots of enthusiasm without any talent

EU immigrants are important in certain areas, both low and high-skilled

Farmers say lots of fruit is rotting in the fields as so many E27 workers

• even though pay is pretty good, well above NMW -

because British workers now refuse the tough physical conditions

Many care workers are from the EU - vulnerable people face having even fewer visits

E27 citizens are 90% of the vets in abbatoirs - required to certify meat is safe.
Almost all UK vets refuse to work there, but it is vital for our food chain to have the staff.

A significant number of scientific researchers at unis or in companies are from the E27

A significant % of highly qualified specialist doctors & surgeons come from the E27:

E27 immigrants are on average younger, healthier & better educated,
because people who choose to leave their country to work - as distinct from fleeing war - are self-selecting

keep a copy of that email

This was my thought too, for when the tide turns and he starts pretending that he never said blah, blah,blah, or just starts blatantly lying his way out. As Farage and co are already doing. Remember Farage extolling the Norway situation, and now pretending that he never said it was going to be easy?

With an aging population, a lot of British workers are incapable of working in tough physical conditions.