Westminstenders: In the Brexit Lane

[RedToothBrush]

I honestly couldn't think of a better starter to the thread than simply just this tweet

Robert Peston @ peston
We’ve got an official opposition tearing itself apart over antisemitism, the founder of the EDL running rings around the judiciary and a government negotiating a Brexit plan that its own MPs and ministers tell me is dead. When will we pull ourselves together, as a nation?

But don't worry, your blue passport will get you an extra special long wait at passport control. And no deal could lead to continued freedom of movement anyway. Something for everyone in there.

There is no such h thing as a good bee it.

There is no such thing as a good brexit- any kind of brexit is bad

I was thinking about motives for voting Leave today, it seems from opinion polls immigration was the biggest factor. I had always been in the camp that having concerns about immigration doesn't mean you're racist. I'm starting to rethink that though, partly because of these threads. All the research evidence shows immigrants are not the cause of over stretched public services. I remember reading a while ago that EU nationals tend to be young and fit, so not need much in the way of healthcare, plus, are more likely than the local population to work in the nhs. So, even when this is explained, Leavers often still want to cut immigration, why is this? Could it be that they just don't like immigrants? If so, then surely that is just down to racism? If Leavers don't believe the evidence that shows immigrants are not responsible for pressure on public services, or maybe they hadn't read it, then why would the first assumption be to blame immigrants? Is that just racism again?

The die hard leavers will not even listen to any kind of evidence, let alone accept it.

You've answered your own question Kenn

More than one firm got rid of their expensive British workers and used Indian/Polish/immigrant workers instead because it was cheaper. DH was one of the workers who lost his job this way - a decent, well paid job that he loved.
I can remember the local nannies raging about an article in one of the papers: a journalist enthusing about how much cheaper it was to take on a Romanian au pair and sack her nanny, everyone should try it.
Well off people treating their employees like commodities and just discarding them for cheaper alternatives, regardless of whether or not they were better (call centre staff couldn’t be understood, the au pairs were unqualified etc.).

That is the attitude that has so angered working class people, especially when it was coupled with the “Lazy Brits” comments.

I’m a Remainer, always have been. In order to win over some of the Leavers, we are going to have to address the above. What are we going to do for all the scrap-heap working class people who have more of the same to look forward to? It is not enough to say “Brexit will be worse!” when all they see is that they’re badly off now, Brexit will bring down the people who treated them with contempt.

Yes, I know wealthy older people also voted Leave: they’re the Yuppies of the 80s - what else did we expect of them?

Agree with Tanith.

I also think that there's been a perfect storm of stories about English history that we've passed on almost in a mythic way. Two world wars, one world cup. We held off the Nazis all on our own while Europe crumbled. And latterly, they need us more than we need them. It's all nonsense of course.

Many unions were smashed in the 80s by Thatcher and workers no longer belonged to them. DH did not belong to a union. Nannies have no union.

I think, had the Unions been stronger, they could have prevented a good deal of what went on, though I’m sure getting rid of unionised workers was a consideration in some industries.

Many unions were smashed in the 80s by Thatcher and workers no longer belonged to them.

The problem was that unions - whether by design (infiltrated by communists) or accident - became increasingly militant with very little oversight. (Does anyone remember the massive open air public strike ballots they held ?).

The country was sick of strikes, (also don't forget that if Leyland workers went on strike, they were allowed to picket other companies, and stop them working).

Britain didn't get the moniker "sick man of Europe" for nothing.

(Again, betraying my incomplete Englishness here, but I never understood why unions weren't able to sit down with management and work towards a better outcome for the entire company. After all, who were the expert steelworkers, carmakers, miners, shipbuilders etc ????).

My first "real" job was with a just-privatised utility in the 1980s. The week I started they had rearranged the offices to provide a mock up of a project that was being delivered. All the desks had been moved around. Friday afternoon, when the demon was finished, I asked where I should move my desk. There were audible gasps of horror, and my boss gently took me to one side and warned me not to even think about moving anything. That was the job of "house services" and if they found I had moved a desk (or my chair) they'd be out on strike. "Again" as she put it. A couple of hours later they turned up and did the move. (Which had been booked 2 months earlier). As far as I could see the only thing they had that I didn't was a brown coat.

Demarcation anyone ?

Interestingly enough, this privatisation happened the time "insider trading" became a thing. Rather heavy handedly, the company overseeing the share sale decided unilaterally that entire swathes of employees would be subject to a check process if they wanted to sell their shares. A check process which meant you had a 2 week delay on the price you got. The department I was working for was included as we had access to very price sensitive data which could affect the share price. The problem was our bosses were not subject to the same rules. Which - as the unions pointed out - meant they could request the data from us, and then make trades themselves. The union (NALGO !) got involved, and I briefly had to cross a picket line. I didn't join the union as I was only there for a year.

My memory of Thatcher and the unions is that if she set fire to them, it was only after they had stacked themselves into a neat pyre and poured petrol on themselves.

When my Dad started work in the 1960s, "foreigners" weren't allowed to join the union. One of the reasons he had lots of Indian and Caribbean friends at work.

...obv all the above is due to employer/director/shareholder greed.

Not the EU.

In much the same way as other reasons for Leave voters dissatisfaction, immigration policy especially, came about due to decisions made in Westminster/Whitehall.

Not the EU.

In much the same way as other reasons for Leave voters dissatisfaction, immigration policy especially, came about due to decisions made in Westminster/Whitehall.

Well we've already established that Leave voters simply won't own the consequences of their actions now. So it's no surprise that it goes back in time with their other decisions like which UK government they elected.

there'll be a raft of studies looking at the drivers for the vote eventually, unfortunately nothing credible exists today, and if it did wouldn't get any exposure.
Into these studies must go the grossly unfair spend london vs the rest, the trashing of industry, the failure to hold the city to account, austerity and the perception of immigration impacts.
re the mythic 'legends', perhaps the generics are all we have left as a nation to be 'proud' of? - its hard to find a single 'hero'/star/sportsman/politician etc who hasn't been trashed by an academic/pressure group and there's a continual backlash against things like empire and our role in the slave trade. If you rip away the foundations of a nation' s beliefs you get instability don't you?
If there are no role models the void gets filled by the charismatic and the charlatan

That was the job of "house services" and if they found I had moved a desk (or my chair) they'd be out on strike. "Again" as she put it. A couple of hours later they turned up and did the move.

Believable yes, but too easy to blame the unions. What happens still in the last place I worked? Cleaning, desk moves and similar jobs were outsourced. When we wanted to move desks, we had to make a request to the outsourced firm, who charged some ridiculous price for the move. Serco, Capita, whoever, were getting their £100 a time for 5 minutes effort. Nice work. When we got wise to this what started to happen? People switched off their PC, unplugged it, and moved it across to the new desk. Job done. I retired, so I don't know if Serco got arsy about this, but it's quite likely. So which was better/worse?

We were a public sector organisation, and we had a very civilised Trade Union which did believe in discussing with management, and I for one, have never been on strike, but have always been a union member. The Germans have TUs and workers councils. How come they manage? May was wittering about Workers representation on company boards, but this idea soon bit the dust.

Well we've already established that Leave voters simply won't own the consequences of their actions now. So it's no surprise that it goes back in time with their other decisions like which UK government they elected.

One of the few things for which we cannot blame the current shower of incompetents. It was Blair’s government that chose not to impose the optional seven year break when ten countries joined the EU in the early 2000s. Opening up our borders before most other EU countries meant vast numbers of immigrants who would might otherwise have chosen France, Germany or elsewhere in the EU could only come to the U.K., Sweden or ROI. Entirely the fault of the U.K. government but it enabled the likes of Farage and the Mail to blame the EU as the cause of uncontrolled immigration.

Yes I think that's true about the Blair government Singing.
I'm quite interested to know though, how many of those Eastern European people did we not 'need'?
My sense is that the majority wanted to work and ended up in jobs, so what would have happened to the UK economy if they hadn't come for another 7 years?
I'm not an economist so can't predict...!

Tanith, an au pair don't really replace a nanny. I know someone who had an au pair from a later accession state outside the EU. The au pair was a qualified nurse. Once her country joined, she was off as she could get a better job. Her qualifications being recognised.

I think the creche and nursery industry are in direct competition with a nanny. Especially if you can't have/don't want someone living in. Depending on hours needed, of course. They are not cheap in London.

Hester I agree, absolutely. We needed EU immigrants due to skills and labour shortages. As we all know, EU migration has been beneficial to our economy. Sadly, that isn’t recognised by countless voters, especially in deprived areas, who have been manipulated into seeing high migration from Eastern Europe as the cause of all their ills, and laying the blame for that on the EU. If our government had worked with its partners in Europe to coordinate the lifting of controls, migration would have been more evenly spread amongst EU countries and we would have still benefited economically from migrant workers.

They were welcomed into the country, worked hard in much needed capacities and paid their taxes. Maybe after March 29 everyone will be able to see just how much we needed them.