Westminstenders: In the Brexit Lane

[RedToothBrush]

I honestly couldn't think of a better starter to the thread than simply just this tweet

Robert Peston @ peston
We’ve got an official opposition tearing itself apart over antisemitism, the founder of the EDL running rings around the judiciary and a government negotiating a Brexit plan that its own MPs and ministers tell me is dead. When will we pull ourselves together, as a nation?

But don't worry, your blue passport will get you an extra special long wait at passport control. And no deal could lead to continued freedom of movement anyway. Something for everyone in there.

most Brit expats in most countries try to recreate their British way of life and don't mix much

This just perpetuates a myth about Brits abroad. Other than the ex-pat retirement communities in places like Spain, the vast majority of British citizens working in the EU live and work just like the local population. They speak the language (or are learning it in order to progress both at work and socially), they have children who speak the language, their leisure activities (sports, cinema, clubs) take place in the local language and they integrate well into the communities in which they live.

The danger with the idea of the stereotype, monoglot, insular Brit abroad is that this becomes the type of person that the government has in mind whenever the fate of the million or so Brits in the EU is discussed. This is not helpful when the government has already refused to engage with this group - a group that Mrs May insultingly dismissed as 'citizens of nowhere'.

Like Masada. With the brexists playing the part of the Romans.

Except (as with Alyssia and the Rhine bridges) the Romans were simply incomparable engineers and builders. The shower of shit Brexiteers we're lumbered with would struggle with Lego.

Also, I don't think Brexiteers would be too happy to be cast as the Europe-uniting Romans. The average moronic Brexiteer thinks Asterix is a documentary (and also knows fuck all about Caractacus).

Interestingly, Boris did flash us a hint of stocking years ago, when he made a 2-part documentary (with tie-in book) which compared the EU unfavourably to the Roman empire ...

www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Rome-Boris-Johnson/dp/0007224451?tag=mumsnetforum-21

But, like a typical spoiled brat, rather than put his back into improving it, he's happy to just walk away.

With all due respect, the MHRA are full of shit.

Johnson bears a striking similarity to Deinocrates.

"He was attractive and ready in conversation, versatile and friendly in society. But at the same time, he was devoted to licentious intrigue, and in public affairs and questions of policy was quite incapable of sustained attention or farsighted views, of fortifying himself with well-considered arguments, or putting them before the public.”

If you want more info, look up Messene and the Achaean League or read www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/09/boris-johnson-brexit-and-the-fate-of-deinocrates

[Spoiler - the people of Messene ended up executing him]

And then with Boris we have the extraordinary fact that before the Ref he made a programme saying that Turkey should join the EU.
Of the things that come out of his mouth, which does he actually believe?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NLQ3Gbiopc4

Proof (if it were needed) that once again, Scotland is light years ahead of England in progressive attitudes.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-45209010

A council is to offer free sanitary products in all its public buildings in a bid to tackle "period poverty".

North Ayrshire Council said it was the first UK local authority to extend free provision to all libraries, community centres and other public offices.

Sanitary products will be offered via vending machines in toilets in up to 100 buildings.

(contd).

I confidently await the knuckle draggers (I'm not a woman, Why should I have to pay ? &c &c)

It's slightly galling that Boris' French and Italian are quite good, and that he chose to speak them in his programmes with subtitles, rather than be dubbed. (I hate dubbing). Curiously though he didn't trust his German (that needed an interpreter IIRC ...).

Galling because it does protect him from the monoglot accusation. (His Latin and ancient Greek seem pretty good too).

Spoiler - the people of Messene ended up executing him

@qikipedia
Every year in Ancient Athens, citizens had the chance to vote their least favourite politician into exile. They would vote using shards of pottery called ‘ostraka’, which is where we get the word ostracise from.

@greg_jenner
Aristides the Just was the finest and fairest of lawmakers. Plutarch tells of an illiterate man who asked Aristides to help him write his vote on the ostraka pot.

“What name shall I write?”
“Aristides”
“OK. Why him?” “Because I’m fed up hearing how just he is”
He wrote it.

Hence........

Two good threads on the current political choreography.
twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1030379738504814592
twitter.com/Sime0nStylites/status/1030351491847122945

Another Brexit role ... on the cheap ..

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/17/home_office_seeks_brexit_tech_boss_doesnt_splash_the_cash/

I did like the idea that it could go to a non-Brit.

Interestingly, it seems that "to PDF" is now a verb. Or at least the Home Office think it is.

This just perpetuates a myth about Brits abroad. Other than the ex-pat retirement communities in places like Spain, the vast majority of British citizens working in the EU live and work just like the local population.

Tbh I am not sure this is really true. I live in France and my experience of the "expat" community here (mostly families - of course there are lots of retirees too, but I don't know as many of them) is that most don't "live and work like the local population" because 99% of the time their language skills are not up to scratch.

Many do work, but the classic "Brit in rural France" occupation is providing services to other English speakers (gîtes, forex services, estate agency, building work). It's different in cities of course but even so, many Britons with full-time permanent salaried posts work primarily in English-speaking or expat-type environments (eg the airbus community here in Toulouse). Britons who are fully integrated doing "ordinary" French jobs are really a very small minority, and they usually have French partners or other French family.

I really do think that Britons in the EU are a different population compared to EU citizens in the UK, though I don't have the data to support that, because no-one does. I suspect they are on average older, they have poorer language skills in the community language, and they are less likely to have salaried work. While at least we don't face the same "hostile environment" I think these factors make the British in Europe very vulnerable in the event of no deal...

Havana It's not a myth:
I live & work in Germany and have had several jobs there over the years
Sure, some integrate, but most don't
Colleagues who've worked in Belgium & the Netherlands say the same thing.

I think a big part of the problem is English language and teaching of foreign languages in schools:

English is ubiquitous as the 2nd language in most countries and people continue using it.

I'm probably typical of Brits in that I learned French - badly - at school, wasn't allowed to learn German - it conflicted with sciences on the timetable !
So my 1st job abroad I was 30, had forgotten all my French aand just knew "Ja /Nein" and "Schweinhund" in German
I found it very difficult to learn in my 30s, having no talent for languages and my brain not having been rewired as a child by learning another language properly

I persisted, but it took years of slog and my accent & grammar would never be sufficiently good for a politician !
I understand why many expats just stick to English: it is the working language in many tech and finance firms here

Ah, just cross-posted with misti !

Colleagues from other departments ask me if it's ok to speak in German, because they are so used to monolingual Brits

Boris has very mixed parentage and is multilingual
He is also a completely amoral opportunist, with no fixed principles
His opposition to the EU is entirely to advance his career

He basically flipped a coin before the Ref andf chose Leave

• probably because he realised the batshit Ultras were likely to dominate the party and gave him a much better chance to rabble-rouse.

He doesn't have the energy or talent for the much tougher task of leading a saner, more One Nation Tory Party

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3338544-Westminstenders-Summer-Season?watched=1

Quick start to a thread. Having a bit of a Crazy week so apologies its not more interesting

I'm probably typical of Brits in that I learned French - badly - at school, wasn't allowed to learn German - it conflicted with sciences on the timetable !

Are you me ?

To be fair (and it does stretch belief) Harrow was incredibly progressive in the 70s. Comprehensive education and all that. I did Latin (no choice) for 2 years in High School. That was in addition to the French I did (again no choice) aged 8-14. I finally was able to drop it when we selected our options.

I did try for the "German for Latin pupils" course, but it clashed with other options (which is why I ended up doing Latin O level).

When I visited UK friends in Paris, they were amazed that I had any French, let alone good enough to be let loose alone in the city. Especially when I said that I'd had no choice. It was just "the way things were". In Harrow.

Funnily enough, one of my French teachers was actually Italian. We (DF and I) bumped into him once in a chippy. I said hello, and he tried talking to my DF in English, which was funny (my DFs English was waaaaaaaaaay better than his). Then they switched to Italian - the dialect, and it turned out teacher was from a village not far from my DFs ....

I did German. I had to request to do German. My grandfather lived in Germany at the time so I had a good argument.

In my fourth year, I didn't feel confident with German and wanted to get better at it, rather than also doing French as well as German. Doing both was the default for anyone who was deemed bright.

They let me do the double german and skip french. German lessons with the lower set were interesting. There were kids who struggled with english and so messed about the whole time. So I got double the time doing german, but a lot of that time was disrupted.

I don't regret it, though I wish I knew a little French. I got an A. I can't speak German, but I can have a good crack at reading it and I can understand a fair amount when spoken even though I can't respond.

My grandfather never really learnt German. But his wife never really learnt English either. They could understand enough other though. I always thought it weird until recently. They could hold a conversation with each other speaking their own language!!!

Ive found German more helpful in the long run as its proved useful for understanding all northern european and some of the balkan languages as there sizeable commonality.

Dh did spanish rather than french. Again arguably more useful than french, if you are not planning to speak fluently.

As an aside, my step grandmother revoked her German citizenship and became British. This enabled her to get a visa to visit her mother in East Berlin which would have been near impossible otherwise.

I was taught German, Latin, Russian and French in schools and 6th form. I've learnt bits of Urdu, Hebrew,Spanish, Mandarin, Greek and Dutch on my own, or in evening classes. Why wouldn't you; it's what the tinternet is for.

Had a great conversation on the state of play in europe, us and here, recently with a mountaineering Austrian grandma as we were caught in a beach bar during a thunderstorm, courtesy of my very basic German.

On the French ex plats, misti seems a complete waste living in the land of Truffaut and Cocteau and confining oneself to english speaking people.

The best thing (for me) about Latin was it allowed you to take it to pieces and put it back together as a process to understanding language as opposed to a language. The various constructs ... we did Cambridge, so A,B,C,D,E forms, rather than nominative, vocative, dative, locative and gentive (if that's right, I want ). Plus learning, how words had to agree. And that's before you get to the vocabulary which - if you have your ear in - gives you an evens chance of guessing European foreign words. Especially if you add a bit of Greek into the mix (which we did - culminating in performing "the Frogs" Brexit ! Brexit ! )

I really do think that Britons in the EU are a different population compared to EU citizens in the UK, though I don't have the data to support that, because no-one does. I suspect they are on average older, they have poorer language skills in the community language, and they are less likely to have salaried work

I've lived and worked in ten other EU countries over the last 30 years and come across numerous British individuals and families who have integrated as I describe above. It is absolutely not my experience that they are older, have poorer language skills or are less likely to have salaried work. Perhaps its the company I keep!

Perhaps 'Brit in rural France' and 'Brit in company such as Airbus' are two additional stereotypical ex-pat communities. There are well over a million Brits in the EU and in my experience they do not all live and work within 'Ex-pat' communities and are very much part of the local communities in which they live.

As with all things, we all have different experiences and I admit that mine may not be typical, but my major concern is that British citizens in the UK are seen by the government as fitting one or other stereotype (such as the pensioners in Spain or the rural rich in France) and not as the diverse population that they really are - and that their futures are being completely ignored.

*British citizens in the UK EU