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Brexit

OK, lets put it this way, what do we want done?

628 replies

Clairetree1 · 01/08/2018 20:02

Its all going so badly and everyone is worried, but what can be done?

Do we want another referendum and the whole Brexit thing aborted? Do we want another leader doing something different? Do we think Teresa May is doing everything that can be done?

I say "do we think" but to be honest, I don't think anything either way of Teresa May, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what could make things better at this stage

OP posts:
Quietrebel · 02/08/2018 08:54

As for Brits living abroad & having own agenda. Of course, they have a vested interest in the outcome! So do you! I'm sure you have your own agenda surferjet, or you wouldn't be participating so actively in these discussions.

French2019 · 02/08/2018 08:55

Herat, the bad feeling isn't going to go away when the deed is done, it's just going to get worse when people start really feeling the effects of Brexit. At that point, I imagine that the majority of remain voters will feel that they will never be able to forgive those who voted leave.

I don't want to see the country brought to its knees just so that the Brexiteers can see what they have done. My daughter has to grow up in this country, and I want her to have a future. I would love nothing more than to see it all work out a tremendous success. Sadly, I see no possibility of it happening in that way. I cling to the hope that we might see sense and cancel the whole thing. Next best option would be a soft Brexit where we stay in the SM and CU. However, I fear that either of those options would lead to significant social unrest, so there is now no clear way out.

The whole referendum should never have been allowed to happen in the first place. That's where this all started....the whole country has been fucked over just to stop the OP infighting within the Tory party. Shame on David Cameron!

surferjet · 02/08/2018 08:55

Because blaming the people who just voted is easy, to actually think critically about why you lost takes maturity.

French2019 · 02/08/2018 08:59

I blame the people who voted to leave, and always will. I also blame the leave campaign for the lies they told, but ultimately, it comes down to individual voters in the ballot box. I will never forgive those who voted for this stupid mess.

Quietrebel · 02/08/2018 09:01

It also takes maturity to look mistakes squarely in the face and own up to them.

Bearbehind · 02/08/2018 09:02

If remainers are so bitter that they’re wishing ill on leave voters, they’re object of hate is very misplaced.
Blame your remain campaigners who did such a shite job.
Blame the young who couldn’t be bothered to vote.

No thanks.

I will blame those who voted for this shambles.

I will blame those who are well off enough not to care what happens anyway.

I will blame those who thought it was clever to make a protest vote over this.

(And I'd like to see the source for saying the young didn't vote too as I'm sure that has been thoroughly debunked).

I appreciate it won't achieve anything though because blame at this stage is pointless.

Sadly it's all we've got right now in lieu of any actual plans.

FrancinePefko42 · 02/08/2018 09:08

Bearbehind
I will blame those who voted for this shambles.

I will blame those who are well off enough not to care what happens anyway.

I will blame those who thought it was clever to make a protest vote over this.

Deeply, deeply moving words Bearbehind. Would you mind awfully if I incorporated them into a new poem I am writing called "Brexmageddon BLAME"?

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 09:10

The vast majority of people who voted remain just want to get on with it now actually - it’s only a tiny minority of hardcore remainers ( many of whom are living abroad so have their own agenda in all this ) who want to frustrate the Brexit process, or stop it altogether - the vast VAST majority just want to get on with it yes - most definitely.

This is actual bollocks.

The vast majority of remainers (as well as, I suspect, a significant number of previous non-voters and a surprising number of leave voters) would vote remain tomorrow in a heartbeat.

Since we've been told that remaining is definitely not an option and we actually have to go through with this insanity, a lot of people have simply become resigned to it. That is not the same as wanting to get on with it. It's simply not seeing that we have any other choice.

There is a big part of me that - as other people have said - wants it to be hard Brexit and a total and utter disaster. Because nothing else will convince some people that Brexit is and has always been a terrible idea, and that it is not possible to "make a success of Brexit", in the same way it is not really possible to make a success of turd-polishing. It's just something you shouldn't do if you have any sense at all.

If we crash out of the EU without a deal, I believe that, as a British person living in France, there will be a period of severe disruption for me. I may find myself temporarily unable to work for as long as it takes for my employers to sort out a visa for me. I may find myself temporarily without health insurance. I am young and fit and healthy, but it is probably a reason to delay trying to conceive for a few months, because I don't fancy being in the early stages of pregnancy in a foreign country and not covered by any health insurance policy. I would also have to hope that I wasn't involved in an accident or didn't suddenly become ill. I may find myself temporarily unable to travel between France and the UK because there is likely to be severe travel disruption and there is also a question mark over the validity of British passports to travel to and from EEA countries after Brexit. I would have to stay in France and not travel until the uncertainty and disruption was resolved. And if there was a family emergency back home, I might not be able to get there. In the longer term there is a risk that my qualifications obtained in the UK might not be recognised. I am trying to become registered in my profession in Ireland to mitigate against this risk. The worst case scenario is that I would have to take new qualifications in France, but I think this is unlikely. I have moved nearly all of my money out of the UK and plan to move the rest out shortly.

Long story short - for me hard Brexit probably means temporary disruption and a few years of annoying paperwork until I'm eligible to apply for French citizenship. I am not worried about being chucked out of France because I am married to a French man and employed on a permanent contract, so I will be eligible for both a spousal visa and a regular work visa if I need one.

If I ever move back to the UK, which I would like to do at some point, I would wait until I'd got my French passport, wait until the worst of the fallout from Brexit was over and things were starting to recover a bit, and try and time my move so that I could buy a nice house dirt cheap.

I believe that the consequences of hard Brexit would be annoying for me but ultimately far less severe than they will be for anyone who actually has to live in the UK, whether they voted leave or remain. And in the long run I could actually benefit from it financially, if I wait out the worst of it here and then return when the country has taken a battering and everything is dirt cheap.

But when I think about the other consequences of hard Brexit, I just can't wish that on anyone. I don't wish it on my friends or family who live in the UK, even the ones who voted leave. I don't wish it on my father who has a chronic illness and needs a lot of NHS care and medication. I don't wish it on anyone already struggling to make ends meet who will really suffer if the price of food, utilities and fuel go up. And I really, really, really don't wish it on anyone living in Northern Ireland. Those people weren't even a footnote in the referendum debate, and now the hard-won peace and stability where they live is under threat.

Nobody deserves hard Brexit, no matter what they voted for or how stupid and pig-headed I might think they are.

So that is why I am still hoping for a soft Brexit. And no, some people will feel betrayed, in the same way that a toddler might feel betrayed if you tell him he can't eat sweets until he throws up. But it's better than the alternative.

Helmetbymidnight · 02/08/2018 09:11

Blimey Francine, I wouldn’t, I don’t think writing is your thing.

Lottapianos · 02/08/2018 09:11

'I want us to leave with no deal leading to the country being on its knees and for Leavers to actually realise what they've caused'

I hear you, I really do, but everyone would have to live with the shitty consequences and that's not fair to put it mildly. And most Leave voters will never accept responsibility for those shit consequences, which would just be even more enraging

I find myself agreeing with people on here who say they will never forgive Leave voters for creating this unholy mess. I have a friend who voted Leave and I have banned myself from talking politics with her for the sake of our friendship and my blood pressure

PrincessoftheSea · 02/08/2018 09:13

Leave voters won’t understand what’s going on and still blame the EU or the remainers.

FrancinePefko42 · 02/08/2018 09:14

surferjet
Because blaming the people who just voted is easy, to actually think critically about why you lost takes maturity

It's pretty obvious why we lost, surferjet. We didn't do a good enough job telling people who deigned to disagree with us that they are
a) Racist
b) Uneducated
c) Probably Northern
At the 2nd Referendum - you can rest assured we will double down on this surefire way to win waivering voters over. If not the 2nd, then definitely the 3rd and 4th.

OrdinarySnowflake · 02/08/2018 09:15

I thought at the time there was a chance remain would lose, too many poor people outside of London had been ignored by politicians (Tories knew they'd never win their votes so ignored them, Labour knew they'd get their votes no matter what, so ignored them), and UKIP was seen as a threat to the Tories, so no-one bothered to check how the large section of working class people in safe Labour seats felt about Europe.

EU membership was a problem politically for the Tories, but not enough to consider they'd lose the referendum, I blame the New Labour years just ignoring what their actual grassroots felt that lead to the mistaken belief in Westminster that you could offer a referendum on Europe, easily win it and shut up the Tory right.

I still don't see lots of leavers saying what they think "getting on with it" should look like. We know what remaining looks like, what does leaving well look like to them?

In the single market? Out? If out, what sort of set up for customs, air traffic etc should we have? You know, details. Not just "get on with it". (Selfishly I wish I could get that confirmed, as I said on another thread, I want to go away over Easter next year, but I need to know if flights will be sorted less than a week after Brexit day...)

French2019 · 02/08/2018 09:29

The thing is, for those who are hoping that a hard Brexit will finally make the brexiteers realise what they have done...they won't. It will all be blamed on Teresa May not negotiating the right deal, or on Johnny Foreigner in the EU not playing nicely, or on the Remainers who didn't get behind Brexit to "make it a success". Whatever that means. They will not accept responsibility for the suffering that they create, no matter what. They will never accept that they were wrong.

And the impact of Brexit will not discriminate between those who voted for it and those who didn't. We will all be fucked, except for the richest among us - including some of the key figures in the leave campaign who don't give a toss what chaos ensues.

I don't wish disaster on anyone, not even the leave voters who I'm struggling to forgive. I just want people to see sense.

Helmetbymidnight · 02/08/2018 09:32

too many poor people outside of London had been ignored by politicians (Tories knew they'd never win their votes so ignored them, Labour knew they'd get their votes no matter what, so ignored them), and UKIP was seen as a threat to the Tories, so no-one bothered to check how the large section of working class people in safe Labour seats felt about Europe.

It really annoys me this positioning of leave as a working class people vote.

Once again, the stats show that age and education were the key factors in voting leave NOT income.

I personally know masses of leavers who are wealthy over 60s. Can we please stop pretending that this was a wc vote.

FrancinePefko42 · 02/08/2018 09:32

LoveInTokyo
There is a big part of me that - as other people have said - wants it to be hard Brexit and a total and utter disaster. Because nothing else will convince some people that Brexit is and has always been a terrible idea, and that it is not possible to "make a success of Brexit", in the same way it is not really possible to make a success of turd-polishing. It's just something you shouldn't do if you have any sense at all.

This ^ 256%.

Join us in calling it BREXMAGEDDON from now on and blame it on THICK people who watch Love Island.

Bearbehind · 02/08/2018 09:33

You are right french

Leavers are never going to accept this mess is their fault- it will always be everyone's else's fault, whatever happens.

Moussemoose · 02/08/2018 09:33

256% - I'd be careful who you call thick.

Bearbehind · 02/08/2018 09:34

francine when does your shift finish? 🤔

FrancinePefko42 · 02/08/2018 09:36

Helmetbymidnight
Once again, the stats show that age and education were the key factors in voting leave NOT income.

Too true, Helmetbymidnight.
Anyone who disagrees with us is
a) Racist
b) Uneducated
c) Northern
d) Old
Or (e) A rich toff

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 09:38

I personally know masses of leavers who are wealthy over 60s. Can we please stop pretending that this was a wc vote.

Yeah, most of the people I know who voted leave are over 50 and much better off than me. A couple of them are extremely wealthy. I know one guy in his 30s who voted leave who isn't rich but isn't on the breadline either. He's just an idiot.

FrancinePefko42 · 02/08/2018 09:40

This reply has been deleted

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Peregrina · 02/08/2018 09:43

It really annoys me this positioning of leave as a working class people vote.
The analysis showed that there were a lot of southern England Tory voters voting for Brexit. The ones who are smug and comfortable now, but not getting any younger.

I live in S England, am over 60 but have never voted Tory in a GE.

Peregrina · 02/08/2018 09:45

Could you go back to baiting the Scots on their Independence thread Francine. Your own contributions added little, IMO, but the replies were well worth reading to try to understand the issues.

FrancinePefko42 · 02/08/2018 09:46

Lottapianos
Most Leave voters will never accept responsibility for those shit consequences, which would just be even more enraging

We must channel our rage, LotOfPianos. Channel the RAGE into poetry, mime, interpretive dance and, of course, Mumsnet!

Find people to BLAME!

Ooooh!