OK, lets put it this way, what do we want done?

[Clairetree1]

Its all going so badly and everyone is worried, but what can be done?

Do we want another referendum and the whole Brexit thing aborted? Do we want another leader doing something different? Do we think Teresa May is doing everything that can be done?

I say "do we think" but to be honest, I don't think anything either way of Teresa May, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what could make things better at this stage

Rosstac very sorry to read how you lost your mum. I would be very angry too.
I just don't think FOM is to blame.
Take Germany for instance, current rate of net EU migration (mostly Romania and Poland) is 300,000 net per year. Much higher than the UKs. They also have had a well-documented increase in non-EU migrants and their infrastructure is still coping. They have excellent healthcare. Why? Must be something they do as a country. Nothing to do with the EU.

Rosstac I’m sorry about your mum.
Between November and June, I was admitted to 3 different hospitals in London and attended A&E at least 10 times and was usually bought in by ambulance.
I would estimate that about 3 quarters of the staff who looked after me -doctors, nurses, HCAs, radiographers, paramedics,porters - were not white British and a significant number of the doctors were from EU countries.
If a significant minority of them leave because they feel unwelcome or insecure about their situation post Brexit, the NHS in London would collapse, it’s already at breaking point.

UnnecessaryFennel
Not all immigrants, the majority in my area ar on min wage and claim HB and WTB
I have never said or suggested sending them home

I would like controlled immigration, not just turn up and go where you want regardless if there is services to handle the people.
I have listened but like everyone else I am not going to change my mind, you all seem to have this rose tinted view of every immigrant at the expense of good, kind and caring local people

Again we do have a problem with an ageing population but it's not the fault of the EU.

If you believe immigration is an issue then leaving the EU won't stop it. Most immigrants are non EU. Just because you see lots of EU immigrants in the doctors surgery does not mean they make up the majority.

All those employers who pay minimum wage and treat people like shit won't stop when we leave the EU. They won't start employing British people on decent wages. They will look elsewhere for people to exploit and then you will have another wave of immigration from somewhere else in the world.

We need to force employers to treat staff well, give them decent working conditions and pay a living wage. Leaving the EU will make the situation worse and trying to improve it impossible.

You can't look out of your window and make policy you need to look at the wider picture. You keep on making valid points but your conclusion that we must leave the EU is not backed up by any facts.

rosstac controlling immigration is not wrong as such but what's really needed is investment in infrastructure and education/training. Brexit will drain the revenue needed for that. It is absurd. Again, you identify real problems but add another one on top thinking it's a solution.

I suggest you put down the Daily Mail and stop blaming immigrants for all the country's problems. I bet you won't though, facts seem to mean nothing to you if there a foreigner to point fingers at. What if all the immigrants left and services are still shit, (they would be because immigrants aren't the problem) who would you blame then?

I have never said or suggested sending them home

And I never suggested that you did.

Honestly, if you're just going to start making stuff up...

the majority in my area ar on min wage and claim HB and WTB

And you know this, how?

the majority in my area ar on min wage and claim HB and WTB

I thought they had restricted access to in work benefits? Happy to be proven wrong.

I will ask again what population do you think is sustainable for the UK?

Given what we invest in services about 55m.

I agree totally that we have insufficient public services for the population we ve currently got.
But what you appear to be arguing for is some sort of correction?
So given you dont want more younger people coming to the UK, then who will be paying the taxes for improved services and who will be providing the care the elderly very much need? given we are in an ageing society.

I guess you d argue for a visa system where we only let in those we need and would prevent them settling or bringing their existing children (because that would add to population growth)

So who do you think would want to come here under those conditions?

rosstac there is simply no conclusion to be drawn from your comments other than it's purely down to race.

British people - Good

Anyone else - Bad

That well known supporter of uncontrolled immigration (NOT), The Daily Telegraph, goes thru how much EU and other immigrants in UK claim state benefits, and concludes

Whatever the arguments for and against reducing the number of EU migrants receiving British benefits, delivering such a reduction wouldn’t make a significant difference to the overall welfare bill which is estimated to be £208 billion for the year 2013-14. And seeing as the take-up of benefits among migrants is so small, it’s also worth asking how big of a draw Britain’s welfare system really is.

Leaving the EU will not stop immigration.

We will not have visa system where only doctors and engineers will be allowed in.

The worst type of British employer needs poor people to exploit to keep wages and conditions down. The immigrants will just speak another language you haven't heard before.

Think about it this way rather than running away from immigration what do you want. Will Brexit give you what you want? Remember most immigrants do NOT come from the EU.

What if all the immigrants left and services are still shit, (they would be because immigrants aren't the problem) who would you blame then? the EU, no doubt.

Moussemoose.

Immigration will not be stopped, but better control would be better, better control of numbers and what areas and better infrastructure would just be a start
But there can’t be any bad British employers because of all the workers protection I hear about, which we are going to lose after we leave the EU,
Why don’t we train are own people instead ?

Why don’t we train our own people instead ?

Cheaper to import them.
Libertarianism... disaster capitalism... market rules. Brexit will not change of that.

*any...

Better control of EU/non EU immigration does NOT require Brexit at all.

That was within the former HS now PM's gift, but nothing happened. There are no exit control stats, so anyone can come here and stay under the radar forever. Other EU countries have ID cards, Belgium as one example. They take no prisoners when operating the three month system for example.

UK on the other hand thinks anything other than its own Government policy will solve issues such as uncontrolled immigration, like Brexit... but it won't. It is just a soundbyte, the will is not there to control it domestically.

Ironic that a min wage immigrant from EU can enter at will, whereas those with the skills we actually need from outside the EU have to go through bureaucratic and monetary hoops to help us run our country successfully.

Some control there!

But the UK will blame everyone and everything but their own incompetence really. But the writing is on the wall now I think. And the Emperor has no clothes anymore.

lljkk so you are happy with that ? What about are younger generations?

Rosstac doesn't want to hear about the 3-month rule, though...lalala, not listening, sing the Brexiteers.

Of course no-one is happy with it. The point is, it will not be changed by Brexit.

keyboardkate, yes what a funny system unskilled people can come and go as they like but skilled people have to jump through hoops, better to control it all in a better manner

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/23/nhs-england-recruitment-crisis-nursing-vacancies
It costs money and takes time to train doctors and nurses. Why bother when you can get them ready trained from other countries who have kindly paid to train them?
There is an absolute crisis in nurse recruitment right now and there is a ticking time bomb in that a large number of nurses are approaching retirement age.
So what does the government do? It gets rid of the bursary for nursing and midwifery students. That really makes sense
Rosstac you have said that nothing anybody says will make you change your mind, even being presented with incontrovertible facts will not make you change your mind.
I am a Remainer but I would happily change my mind if Leavers could present a cogent case, backed up with evidence, as to why Brexit is a good idea. I imagine most Remainers would because, on the whole, we have arrived at our decision by weighing up facts.
Believe it or not, most Remainers would love to be proved wrong. Seeing your economy destroyed and your children’s future fucked isn’t worth the fleeting pleasure of getting to say ‘I told you so’.

Most the rich countries have same strategy not to train enough of their own people, cheaper to import them. That situation sucks, Rosstac. Leaving EU won't fix it. Protest voting in Brexit Referendum, hard to see that will achieve a single thing that Leavers thought they were voting for. Maybe that nebulous 'sovereignty' thing that matters so much to some.

UnnecessaryFennel you can tell me all about how it doesn’t work, it’s the only means to control EU immigration and a rubbish one at that, you can just see the immigrants load there cars back up the day after 3 months is up and saying rules are rules we must go home it’s only fair,
Come children get in the car