OK, lets put it this way, what do we want done?

[Clairetree1]

Its all going so badly and everyone is worried, but what can be done?

Do we want another referendum and the whole Brexit thing aborted? Do we want another leader doing something different? Do we think Teresa May is doing everything that can be done?

I say "do we think" but to be honest, I don't think anything either way of Teresa May, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what could make things better at this stage

I do not agree with the Schengen Agreement and we never signed up to it.

Indeed we didn't. So what's the problem with it?

Bearbehind some of us have other things to do in or lives, not just spend all day on here have you nothing else to do ?
Sorry if it jumps and about a bit, I live in an ares that had been swapped with immigrants, without any thought to existing services, Housing,Doctors,Dentists, Adult and social care etc ( the infrastructure)
No thought was given to the impact on the local people of uncontrolled numbers in one area and how it would alter it, not in a good way.
The major factory where I and many others who had worked there for generations, has been changed beyond belief, it was a well paid job with shift pay, overtime and even Xmas bonuses, that started to change When Labour ( with out asking the people ) decided to open the floodgates. And even they later admitted that they never expect as many to come here,
The factory started to put mobile homes up on land around the factory and housing ( charging rent ) EU workers and working in the factory on min wage well below existing pay levels, slowly but surely people were sacked for quite small things and of course no pay rises, Any overtime was given to the EU citizens, no overtime min wage, shift pay was removed, obviously people that could left either retired early or young enough tried to find jobs elsewhere,
More and more came to live in the area, putting pressure on services that had not altered, the lack of social housing already with waiting lists for local people , Any that become available were given to EU citizens que jumping local people, schools where put under pressure with more and more EU children demanding places at all ready filled schools, leading to overcrowded and lack of good education, we now have 4 schools that have failed to min gov targets and 11 in the wider area.
With the major employer in the area getting rid of any Uk citizens who wouldn’t work for min wage the local high street started to go downhill, shops closing as the money was tighter or the local people shopped local as they had all ways done and the Polish people shopped in the big supermarket miles away and eventually in the polish shops that opened up,
The Area fail in to decline pubs and restaurants closing as the new people were not using them and existing people either had moved away or no money,
All The houses were bought for rent to EU citizens that would often be 4-6 people in a two bed house/Flat local people couldn’t get places to buy or rent,
Two local builders went out of business ( had been in existence for 80 years father son thing as they couldn’t complete with the thriving cash economy were EU citizens would work for low rate for cash and also claiming jsa ( yes I know UK people do it as well )
The area has changed beyond recognition with every service struggling, you just can’t suddenly build more house, schools, local amenities, Doctor surgery, it would be good to have the things in place before vast numbers were and still are allowed into the area,
We have the new people singing praises of are generous country, no HB or WTB in Poland or free health care and the the generous CB, and of course the good wage they are earning,
They drive around in their foreign cars, no road tax to pay in this country, ( yes there are rules, but not enforced).
We have mini buses regularly bring more people in, living with mates and working for cash ( oh yes the 3 month rule, doesn’t bother them )
Still using the NHS when needed.
I wonder how many children of school age are in Polish schools compared to the UK, at are tax payers expense ( good job I don’t pay tax anymore)
I could go on and on but you’ve probably stopped reading by now, ( Racist ), my live and family and friends have been changed for the worse, we didn’t ask for this or want it, it’s been changed by FOM, I know there is always a need for skilled immigration but it should be handled better.
The nail in my hart is my poor mother died recently, she rang the local doctors, she been there for 50 + years for an appointment and was told they are really busy and the next appointment is 3.5 weeks away, not wanting to make a fuss took that date, yes she should have demanded to see the doctor but she wasn’t that sort of woman, two weeks later she collapsed at home, managed to call me by the time I got there she was in a bad way, called the ambulance and was taken to hospital, she was treated in a&e they could find a spare bed for her at that time and was placed in a corridor, 1 hour later she was dead, died in a corridor, what made it worse was there were people from EU country taking bed space from my dieting mum, a woman who had payed tax and ni all her working life, never claimed a penny in benefits ( pension) and there was no bed space,
Yes I’m not blind to the fact that some of these problems are the past and previous governments faults, but how can we be in a position where we can’t control numbers into this country, we have to know or a good guess to match or better infrastructure, with over 300,000 It’s the best the government can come up with they don’t know, people plus a year coming in and only 200,000 houses being built, you can see the problem, this doesn’t inc no EU citizens.
England is the second most densely populated country in the EU,
What is the max population for this country? The more people we have the more people we need, we need to keep the green field for farm land, you all complain we have to import food,
I voted leave in hope of somehow stopping or controlling immigration before it’s to late,

Ta1kinpeace I’m sure we will still be able to leave this island when we leave the EU, I traveled before 75 with my BLUE passport, I’m sure we can travel again,
I was talking about living and working in EU countries

@Rosstac

A few comments:

1. Most immigration has been from non-EU countries which we could have controlled
2. We could control EU immigration too but have chosen not to - ie EU migrants must have jobs or the means to support themselves. This is in the treaties
3. Many of the of the policies causing your stress are domestic in nature as you point out - eg underfunded NHS. Blaming the EU by voting to leave it feels odd
4. Leaving the EU will demonstrably cause the UK to be worse off. How will this help you if the country is worse off?

I'm really sorry you lost your mum Rosstac. My deepest sympathies, that must have been really hard.
But none of those things you mention were caused by the EU. They are all the consequences of austerity, lack of investment by the UK government and the UK and how it applies or opts out of worker's rights.
Brexit won't fix any of the things that have made your life hard, it will only make them infinitely worse.

how can we be in a position where we can’t control numbers into this country

We are NOT in this position, as has been said here a million times. The government is choosing not to exercise our controls on immigration. You'd have to ask them why.

As for doctors, schools etc, people coming into the country isn't a zero sum game. More people equals more tax revenues (and yes most immigrants pay their taxes) equals more money to invest in infrastructure. Again, why this money isn't spent on schools and affordable housing etc is a question for our government.

It's always the same complaints, which are valid complaints in many ways (lack of housing, decent work, services) but you are tilting at windmills. Membership is not the root cause of these things and neither is FOM, it's a convenient scapegoat for years of government mismanagement. Mismanaging the economy and provision of services and not managing EU migrants who come in, like having ID cards and properly enforcing the 3 month rule. Other countries manage it because they put the necessary systems in place.

Exactly, nikita. Immigrants create wealth, if that wealth isn't being channeled into services like schools, the NHS and housing, well that's the fault of the national government, not the EU.

rosstac thank you for posting that.

It's clearly a deeply emotive subject for you (sorry to hear about your Mum )

The fact is though, everything you've listed is the fault of successive governments, not the EU.

Also, the effects of Brexit are going to make that worse not better.

There's not suddenly going to be loads of money for services etc.

FOM is not truly going to reduce- it's going to be fudged to the extent we always could have done anyway.

I'm sure no one would disagree that, all things being equal, there may be isolated situations where immigration has had a negative impact.

But the key point is, these situations are isolated and overall immigration is beneficial for the country.

Also, all things aren't equal; the cost of Brexit cannot just be ignored. FOM was never offered as the only consequence of Leaving.

You are still not thinking about how the rest of this shit show is going to affect the situation because if you did, you'd see it's only making it worse.

Metropolitan areas of the U.K. have been dealing with immigration for centuries and so the people are more used to dealing and then accepting.

In traditionally monocultural rural areas all the issue are magnified and when they happen at the same time as austerity you can see how people would link the two things.

However, most of the issues are austerity based. There is a shortage of services because the government has cut them. Blaming the most visible factor rather than seeking to understand the reasons behind the problem is the reason behind many racist incidents across the world.

In the 19th century it was a tactic used by the Russian authorities at a time of local economic crisis call a pogrom, blame the Jews, distract the locals.

Consider the underlying issues and don't allow yourself to be manipulated and used by unscrupulous politicians.

Furthermore the UK was the one pushing the accession of the E European countries. So it's back to a complaint about the Westminster Government.
If you don't have Poles and Romanians, do you think that those employers who currently exploit them won't exploit sub-Saharan Africans or south-east Asians, who are brought in to replace them? Do you really expect the jobs to go back to UK citizens?

I think you have been well and truly conned by Farage and his ilk. The Farage who will be in a position to skip the country if it all goes tits up!

As for your mother's healthcare problems - I am sorry to hear them, but this is happening everywhere. Many of our local surgeries have only been kept open because they are staffed by immigrant Doctors, of various nationalities.

@Rosstac.

Little wonder you re not pro EU.

However, we ve exactly the same problems you list about roads/schools & hospitals/ GP wait times..
Devon and Cornwall have little inward migration yet the same issues eg a routine GP appt is a 3 week wait
Previous governments have ignored our aging population, be this in regard of social care or average age of GP's

Failure to plan ahead and invest long term in public services is to blame, of course, locally migration has made matters worse, yet the Tories removed the funding to assist these areas.

Business has used the GFC to crack down on UK pay and conditions, across the board.

Whatever Brexit we get or even if we stay in the EU, nothing will change the above because the same people will be in charge and they ve zero incentive to change priorities, people will just keep voting Tory/Labour regardless.

Totally agree about the fact people in areas with very recent immigration have been conned into blaming them for all the problems in the area.

It's the easy option.

Rosstac, I'm really sorry to hear about your mum. My mum died 18 months ago after many many years of illness (mental health). She rarely got proper help due to lack of the specialist services she so badly needed.

However, that was not the fault of the EU. It was down to years and years of ideologically-motivated austerity in public services, which saw (amongst many other things) very, very deliberate underfunding of the NHS by our own Westminster government. Not because of immigration. Immigration brings in money to the country, immigrants work in and help maintain our public services. They categorically do not drain them - that is a convenient lie that you and many others like you have been sold by a venal, corrupt, uncaring WESTMINSTER government who, frankly, don't give the tiniest shit about you and your family.

I worked in the frontline of the NHS for years. It is on its knees, yes. I agree. Because it has been used as a political football for decades and is now the victim of the most sustained attack on it since its inception by our (say it again) OWN WESTMINSTER GOVERNMENT. The govt that took away nursing and midwifery training bursaries at a time when we most needed new staff to join the professions. The govt that destroyed any remaining goodwill with junior Drs due to its lying and manipulation, meaning that many talented individuals simply left the profession. The govt that has refused a payrise to NHS staff for years, meaning that it is no longer a safe or attractive profession. Nurses using foodbanks, anyone?

EU immigrants keep the NHS going. They contribute far more to it than they take out. You have been sold a lie, an evil lie actually, that means Brexit will very likely spell the end of the NHS as we have always known it. I'm truly sorry for what happened to your mum, but it's got fuck-all to do with the EU and everything to do with the people we voted into our own (always sovereign, btw) government.

The biggest demand on NHS comes from ageing British people, 95% of Brits age 70+ were born here (& so were most their ancestors). EU and other migrants are the ones working so paying tax & working for NHS & costing UK less money to train to be a HCP than a British-born person would cost.

Migrants are saviours for the NHS, not the cause of NHS problems.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s

"The average 65 year old costs 2.5x as much as a 30 year old... an 85 year old costs five times as much"

Mousse You’re absolutely right about monocultural areas struggling with even a relatively small amount of immigration whereas, in large cities, it’s just seen as normal.
According to the 2011 census, 36.7% of Londoners were born outside the U.K, including 24.5% who were born outside the EU. London voted strongly to remain. The diversity is one of the things that the vast majority of Londoners like about living here.
My DM lives in a smallish town in Berkshire.
She says exactly the same thing as Rosstac about having to wait ages for a GP appointment because of the hordes of Polish people who have moved there.
I did some research and it’s estimated that Polish people make up about 1.2% of the population.
I was glancing at the Daily Fail this morning (I was at the dentist and someone had left their copy behind). On page 2, right at the bottom of the page there is a paragraph under the heading “Clarifications & Corrections”. The paragraph says,
“Comment item on June 2 said that when the Irish faced ruin in the post 2008 financial crash, ‘it was British taxpayers who bailed them out, while the EU barely lifted a finger’.
We are happy to clarify that while the U.K. provided a significant additional contribution to the bailout, the majority of the funding was provided by the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism, the European Financial Stability Fund and the International Monetary Fund”.

My MIL living in Oxfordshire says exactly the same. Looking at the returns from the 2011 census it says 1% Poles and 1% other EU with 90% being White British. It's absolutely amazing, isn't it, that this 2% completely clog up the Doctor's surgeries?

Do you not think that for one second that by being more people in the country,
The people that have come here may usually bring children and other ones may have children here, which will in turn increase the population more.
we need more people to service the people its a never ending whirlwind,
Please don't forget that the old people like their parents before them have worked and paid taxes in this country and a few have lived through the war and rationing don't they deserve to be looked after in their old age, you will be old one day soon, its not their fault that modern medicine costs a lot and is better at per-longing their lives.

I will ask again what population do you think is sustainable for the UK ?

The people that have come here may usually bring children and other ones may have children here, which will in turn increase the population more.
And they will pretty much all pay taxes/need to buy things. Which raises revenue. And the population is dying off faster than it's increasing.

we need more people to service the people its a never ending whirlwind

We need more YOUNG, ABLE people to service OLD/ILL people.

The majority of people from other EU countries are young and able (and many are employed in caring professions); an increasing proportion of the UK-born population are old and/or ill and are the ones who need the servicing.

Much as I’m great full for the NHS staff, not all immigrants work in the NHS as you all seem to make out

www.bbc.com/news/uk-18623096

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/17/immigration-good-for-britain-bust-myths-austerity

You have it back to front rosstac

Either they are taking all the jobs (therefore contributing to society through taxes) or they are a drain on services. You can't have it both ways aka Shroedinger's Immigrant.

Rosstac the points you seem to keep missing are that

a) the fact that we had relatively 'uncontrolled' immigration (for want of a better phrase) was down to our own govt's incompetence/laziness/whatever, not the EU's

b) immigrants work and pay tax

c) immigrants staff the NHS and social care services and we're going to be royally fucked without them

d) we all deserve to be looked after in our old age but again cuts to social care/NHS are the fault of OUR govt, not the EU

e) rationing may not be far off...

f) leaving the EU won't stop immigration!

As someone upthread/on another thread said; it's not that your concerns themselves are necessarily wrong but that you have directed your anger and frustration at entirely the wrong source. People have patiently engaged with you over and over again across several threads and you don't seem to acknowledge any of the arguments that are put to you.

And all this young and able will need looking after when they are old and the population will just keep on rising

Much as I’m great full for the NHS staff, not all immigrants work in the NHS as you all seem to make out

Who on earth has said that? Please, show us.