To ask if those panicking about Brexit realise they've been had?

[Growingboys]

Honestly, it's pathetic.

This is Project Fear mark 2, spin designed to stop Brexit happening. Politicians and wonks hope that if they spread enough fear around, which is what all these ridiculous 'prepping' threads are, they will stop us leaving the EU.

Everybody needs to calm the fuck down, stop digging their underground food stores/adding some more tins to the Ocado order, and realise this is spin, pure and simple. The world will continue to turn, and food will continue to be on supermarket shelves, regardless of what happens with Brexit.

I am very sad at the lack of sense and backbone so many people are showing here, regardless of views on Brexit.

I'm off to have a gin and put my feet up. I might even eat something from my freezer tonight rather than save it for armageddon #dicingwithdeath

I think the south east has no idea how ignored by the government, deprived and isolated areas of the north-west and north-east are and how fed-up and disenfranchised many people feel

They're not ignored. They're exploited and encouraged to scapegoat "immigrants" because it saves the government from admitting that it's their own policies causing the problems.

I think the south east has no idea how ignored by the government, deprived and isolated areas of the north-west and north-east are and how fed-up and disenfranchised many people feel.

This sort of arguement never makes any sense, it might have done couple of centuries ago, when people moved around less, but these days almost everyone in the South East has come from, or has strong connections with, the North.

( and/or the West)

I do know a few London families, or Kent families, who have been born and raised in the South East, or who belong to immigrant families that settled in the South East, but a very small minority.

Not only do people come from the North, or the West country, but they also often return there, when they have had enough of renting but can't make London house prices

South Easterners are not a race apart, you know.

[the uk] also contains the poorest 9 of the top 10 poorest regions

I am sorry. I have to call bullshit on this one. Inequality by region in a country maybe we have some big gaps in the UK but not poorest overall in the EU. Have you ever travelled in Romania? Just look at GDP per capita to see how the hyperbole has gone into a false fact meltdown.

The poorest part of the UK is wealthier than almost any part of Romania. As for UK inequality might that have something to do with measuring the gap between London/South East and the rest of the Uk? The former are very rich by most standards therefore everyone else in the UK is relatively worse off. Now perhaps the Uk gov could have done more, I think that’s true, but allowing lots and lots of labour competition wasn’t a winning idea here. And to top that off London is a global competitor in finance so the EU isn’t a threat whereas if you have a choice to make stuff in the Uk or in a cheaper A8 country you pack up your dies and machine tools and the work goes but the people can’t move. That’s a win for the capital holders but not for the workers. Who have zero hours contracts on minimum wage. Not enough to raise a family and, given the minimum support levels provided by the state, not enough to make a life instead of not working.

Of course if the Uk had its own independent trade policy these issues could have been dealt with before they became so large.

But hey. Moronic xenophobes and racists. Right on. Yeah!

Wisedad
Eurostat disagrees with you
fullfact.org/economy/does-uk-have-poorest-regions-northern-europe/

Of course if the Uk had its own independent trade policy these issues could have been dealt with before they became so large.
Why does the UK need an independent trade policy to deal with
the gig economy / zero hours contract
the EU has no involvement with each country's employment rules

They're not ignored. They're exploited and encouraged to scapegoat "immigrants" because it saves the government from admitting that it's their own policies causing the problems.

This is some severe mental gymnastics on display, especially when painted as being pro eu.

Ta1kinpeace thanks for that link - it was very interesting. There was also a clear correlation between regions with a high Brexit vote and poverty.

We can not continue to ignore the inequality in our society Brexit will just make the poor poorer.

Justanotherlurker that's how scapegoating works.

People in poverty look around and see other poor people often immigrants living the life they lead. Perhaps, living in social housing, claiming tax credits, queuing for a doctors appointment etc.

It is easier to blame the people you can see with you own eyes rather than the systemic failure of governments.

How many people have come on threads explaining they voted for Brexit because of what they could see - immigrants taking jobs.

Groups that look different, or practice a different religion or speak a different language are often used a times of economic crisis to remove blame from the people in power. History is littered with examples - ask the Jews they've been on the receiving end a time of two or six million.

I think the south east has no idea how ignored by the government, deprived and isolated areas of the north-west and north-east are and how fed-up and disenfranchised many people feel.

I think this is the first thing you've said in two years I agree with Lulu. The trouble is, the cause of it has been the venal neoliberal policies of successive Conservative governments. The EU was the good guy in this picture. Life for people in these communities will get worse, much worse, as a result of Brexit.

me.me/i/25-oh-you-dont-neod-to-fight-them-you-just-need-69425e8c671941bd975142b9906a768e
THis picture sums up how the Tories treat the regions

You say mental gymnastics, I say a greater degree of critical thinking than you're accustomed to.

For Farage, Johnson and Gove to achieve a majority vote in the referendum, they had to ensure a groundswell of opinion against the EU. So they didn't ignore the problems of the poor - they exploited them. They blamed all their ills on the EU and they used the right-wing press as propaganda tools. (Well one side was using the other, hard to tell which really).

Problems in housing and jobs don't come from the EU and competition from migrants. They come from accumulated government policies, from a post-industrial economy, from the sale of social housing. But if you can get the most disadvantaged to believe that no, this isn't the fault of the government, it's all down to pesky immigrants taking jobs and housing, you're onto a winner. You can hide inconvenient truths, like the fact that EU migrants make a net contribution to the British economy. You can harness discontent and swing the vote your way.

@Moussemoose

I agree on a fundamental level that people look for out groups to blame, however, a lot of the problems that we are experiencing today is a combined problem of neoliberalism and globalisation which cannot be blamed solely on our governments, to infer they have been hoodwinked requires a lot of mental gymnastics being from a pro eu standpoint.

You say mental gymnastics, I say a greater degree of critical thinking than you're accustomed to.

Oooh, well your not coming across as superior with that opening statement are you...

For Farage, Johnson and Gove to achieve a majority vote in the referendum, they had to ensure a groundswell of opinion against the EU. So they didn't ignore the problems of the poor - they exploited them. They blamed all their ills on the EU and they used the right-wing press as propaganda tools. (Well one side was using the other, hard to tell which really).

Oh, painting it as a right v left issue, your not as intelligent as you made out...

Justanother
Affordable housing shortages in the UK = UK government policy of selling off Council houses and restricting their replacement.

School place shortages in the UK = Tory policy of stopping councils from building schools where they are needed

Gig Economy / Zero Hours / job insecurity = Tory policy to make the UKs employment laws more business friendly

Inequality = UK tax policy that uniquely allows Non Doms (including Lord Rothermere) and permits LLPs and CFC rules and protects tax havens

NHS funding crisis = entirely political decisions and choice of keeping taxes low.

None of these have anything to do with the EU and Brexit will make them worse not better

I agree neoliberalism and globalisation have exacerbated the problems successive governments have caused.

The one organisation not to blame is the EU. The EU is far from perfect but it is not to blame for poverty in Cornwall in fact they have done much to ease the situation.

Will add..

For Farage, Johnson and Gove to achieve a majority vote in the referendum, they had to ensure a groundswell of opinion against the EU. So they didn't ignore the problems of the poor - they exploited them.

~65% of labour constituencies voted leave, the majority of those would vote for a donkey with a red rosette, how would Boris/Gove hold sway in those constituents.

Also why has a referendum on staying in the Eu been a manifesto pledge since Blair, we can ignore JC's public voting record and Morning Star etc as being pro leave and just paint it as a right wing issue if you just want to strawman the situation, we can just jump to the scenario and pretend leavers are just uneducated plebs who are easily led.

Affordable housing shortages in the UK = UK government policy of selling off Council houses and restricting their replacement.

Also a global issue, but government policy is not the only problem is it, we have had NIMBY-ism which cuts through political lines, Investment culture from home and abroad, combined with the most basic economic fundamental of supply and demand means it doesn't neatly lie on UK government's doorstep.

School place shortages in the UK = Tory policy of stopping councils from building schools where they are needed

Again, supply and demand. We had 13 years of labour utilising PFI to build new schools, your intelligent enough to understand right of center economics to not put the blame solely on the conservatives for that one

Inequality = UK tax policy that uniquely allows Non Doms (including Lord Rothermere) and permits LLPs and CFC rules and protects tax havens

You need to do a bit more research instead of blaming the right wing bogeyman, especially if you are trying to argue a vote for remain.

NHS funding crisis = entirely political decisions and choice of keeping taxes low.

Well we could go the full european route of having part privatised,but the NHS is used as a political football and is far more complex than keeping taxes low

If you wasn't so obvious in your political leaning you might have swayed some leavers around.

FWIW I think Corbyn is an utter muppet
and that Gordon Brown was a shockingly bad chancellor who did not mend the roof while the sun was shining

But if councils were not forced to sell of their properties
and if both main parties would stop sucking up the PFI parasites
then those two issues could be resolved.

Tax policy is my favourite topic (funny that)

Non Dom status is indefensible and should be abolished.
LLPs are being abused by dirty money from all over the world - the UK invented them. It can take the lead on cleaning them up.
The UKs CFC laws will become untenable after 2nd April next year - and good thing too

UK tax policy over the last 20 years has been too much in favour of the top 0.1%
All I ask is that the basic rate and higher rate of tax returns to what it was under Margaret Thatcher

Brexit is not a left right issue.

Brexit vote maps onto King vs Parliament in the Civil War:
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/09/brexit-has-the-semblance-of-a-new-english-civil-war/

Divide could be more deeply embedded than we thought. Or more likely, just geography.

Justanotherlurker interesting comments but the point remains the issues are a result of U.K. governments and not the EU.

borntobequiet many thanks for that link. I've always been a supporter of the Parliamentarian cause and it's good to know I'm following in their footsteps.

OK, I stand corrected and apologise then @Ta1kinpeace you are willing to not point the solely at the Cons.

I agree wholeheartedly with regards to non dom status, but that isn't the thorn in the side of inequality, it will help in tax income for sure.

As for tax take, I agree we could eek out more, and to be fair to the cons they are doing some significant changes in this area to bring in more tax income, but we are in a globalised economy now and it is even more of knife edge situation of just shouting "tax the rich more"

Brexit is not a left right issue.

I agree, but a lot of the zealot remainers seem to ignore this and somehow support corbyn

There was a significant backlash against neoliberalism and globalisation, this is where a lot of mental gymnastics from the zealot left remainer take hold.

interesting comments but the point remains the issues are a result of U.K. governments and not the EU.

Interesting as in you just sweep aside any critical thinking as to EU involvement in UK implementing government policies?

I agree neoliberalism and globalisation have exacerbated the problems successive governments have caused.

OK, good.

The one organisation not to blame is the EU. The EU is far from perfect but it is not to blame for poverty in Cornwall in fact they have done much to ease the situation.

Unironically thinking the EU is the not the epitome of Neoliberalism... this is the problem with brexit, some that support remaining will not accept what it is.

Interesting in that you make no specific links to the EU yourself. I'm happy to think critically if you give me something to think about.

Who supports Corbyn? I'm left wing but think he is a poor leader.

The hard left mainly support Brexit. I've spoken to people who think Brexit will be the tipping point towards revolution. The U.K. has traditionally avoided a workers revolution (as opposed to a Parliamentary revolution) by giving limited concessions for example the Great (ha) Reform Act. It in fact offered limited reforms but just enough to stop revolution.

So the thinking goes Brexit will allow untethered capitalism which will force a revolution. The hard left and the hard right support Brexit. Whiteout knowing anything else this would put me off supporting it.

Hmmmm 'neoliberalism' are you using the term as it was used in the middle of the last century? If you are then yes the EU is neoliberal.

If you using the term in its most recent iteration- which is what I assumed - as it used in the US then, no, I don't think the EU is about reducing welfare payments at the expense of the markets for example.