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Brexit

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To ask if those panicking about Brexit realise they've been had?

515 replies

Growingboys · 29/07/2018 19:18

Honestly, it's pathetic.

This is Project Fear mark 2, spin designed to stop Brexit happening. Politicians and wonks hope that if they spread enough fear around, which is what all these ridiculous 'prepping' threads are, they will stop us leaving the EU.

Everybody needs to calm the fuck down, stop digging their underground food stores/adding some more tins to the Ocado order, and realise this is spin, pure and simple. The world will continue to turn, and food will continue to be on supermarket shelves, regardless of what happens with Brexit.

I am very sad at the lack of sense and backbone so many people are showing here, regardless of views on Brexit.

I'm off to have a gin and put my feet up. I might even eat something from my freezer tonight rather than save it for armageddon #dicingwithdeath

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 30/07/2018 15:29

Bryce Baschuk @bbaschuk
It starts ...
New Zealand Opposes U.K.'s @wto quota plan:
www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/2018/07/27/New-Zealand-opposes-EU-and-UK-s-quota-split-proposal

“Markets are dynamic, domestic production and consumer demand continues to evolve, and it is important for market stability that New Zealand’s sheepmeat and beef exporters are able to factor that into their marketing plans.”

“We are also absolutely confused by the timing of this proposal – given that the terms of the UK’s exit have yet to be negotiated between the UK and EU."

"Without clarity and details around the future trading relationship between the UK and EU, it is very difficult to assess the implications of their proposal. "

"It is therefore both illogical and unacceptable to be put in a position of having to negotiate an arbitrary split of our legally binding market access rights when there is so much uncertainty about the shape of the future trading relationship between the EU and the UK.”

END

Dmitry Grozoubinski @DmitryOpines
1/ NZ blocks draft @WTO UK Goods schedule. This was inevitable.

To allow (not object, to) certification of the UK schedule would be to give up the right to legally challenge anything in it as a loss of market access.

Why did they do it and what does it mean?

2/ In their new draft schedules, the EU and UK are keeping tariff levels (%) unchanged. So what's the issue?

Quatas.

Instead of flat percentages, some of the more sensitive products for the EU had quotas, effectively only allowing a fixed volume into the EU.

3/ Quotas. Cool. So what?

Well, in their new schedule the UK and EU are splitting those quotas (both the ones open to everyone and those only specific other countries could use) based on where (UK or EU) the goods have recently been going.

4/ That sounds reasonable, why are NZ being jerks?

Australian answer: They can't help it, the bastards.

Real answer: Because NZ and others argue it's a reduction of access. If previously they could follow demand to anywhere in the EU 28, now they are locked in to past patterns.

5/ What?

So previously if you had access to a 1000 tonne EU pork quota, you could sell it all to UK one year, France the next or split it wherever the best price was.

Now NZ argues, they are locked into whatever they happened to sell in the three year reference being used.

6/ Oh. Anything else?

Well, as @DavidHenigUK has written the formula the UK and EU used has produced some bizarre and unusable quotas (1 tonne of Canada pork to the UK per annum).

The EU/UK have also admitted they don't actually know where stuff went so the numbers may be off.

7/ OK, I get that, what does it mean for the UK?

It's annoying but not apocalyptic.

Any WTO Member can block certification of a draft schedule forever, but the UK can trade just fine with an uncertified schedule.

8/ So a block is meaningless?

Not quite. An uncertified schedule means Members are still considering challenging the UK schedule in a WTO Dispute as a loss of access.

Thats stressful on its own, and the ambiguity could give others (slight) pause in opening FTA negotiations.

9/ I heard the UK and EU took different approaches to this?

The EU circulated its schedule as a notification of reduced access, basically inviting Members who felt wronged to come negotiate.

The UK plonked theirs down as a technical ratification, like they were fixing a typo.

10/ What's the difference?

Positioning. The EU is accepting the premise of those like NZ that tariff quota splitting could lead to a loss of access, and the UK isn't.

/Thread

David Henig @DavidHenigUK
More on agriculture at the WTO. Summary: The UK cannot be complacent about having a WTO basis for trade by March.

Surprised other media have not picked up - too technical?

John Alty @JohnAlty1
Some comment around about UK WTO TRQs. UK set out its approach to TRQ holders last October and has been in detailed discussions since. No surprises in reactions to our goods schedules @tradegovuk

Bryce Baschuk @bbaschuk
This is true - 7 major agricultural exporters told the UK & EU they disagreed with the proposed tariff rate quota split back in Sept. 2017

Letter here: bit.ly/2O0Eqtr

Countries: Argentina, Brazil, Canada, New Zealand, Thailand, the U.S., and Uruguay

What's changed since Sept. 2017 is the UK/EU quota split is no longer a proposal. The UK & EU have formally forged ahead with an approach that their biggest agricultural importers fundamentally disagree with

The EU recognizes that it must renegotiate w/ the WTO's other 136 members to address the loss of the UK market from its @wto schedule. That is why they are pursuing Article 28 renegotiations.
Link here: bit.ly/2LAlkfd

In contrast, the UK argues that this is a quick technical fix that won't harm their trading partners.
They are pursuing a 1980 @wto procedure known as technical rectification.

Link here: bit.ly/2v48I5R

Here's what happens next:

Over the next three months @wto members will likely raise their objections and seek negotiations with the EU & UK to address any perceived harm caused by the tariff rate quota split.

The EU & UK will then try to appease the concerns of any aggrieved exporters or face the potential for @wto dispute proceedings that could bring uncertainty to the legal foundation upon which they trade with the rest of the world.

To be sure, the UK could unilaterally implement its rectified @wto schedules & operate on an uncertified basis (for a while). Indeed, the EU has been trading on outdated schedules for years. UK negotiators could also appease any aggrieved parties via separate FTA negotiations.

But if @wto members trigger dispute settlement proceedings questioning the legality of the UK schedules and Britain loses the case it will throw the UK's entire trade status into uncertainty. At that point the UK may be called to to renegotiate its @wto schedules via Article 28.

Article 28 renegotiations involve a lengthy and laborious process where the UK negotiates w/ the @wto**'s other 136 members to accommodate any perceived loss of market access. The UK wants to avoid this, which is why they are pursuing the rectification approach in the first place.

If the UK's approach is dragged into @wto dispute proceedings it would put the UK in a weaker negotiating position with potential FTA partners. In addition, any prospective FTA partners might hold off on a new trade deal while the UK's fundamental @wto trade terms are in doubt.

^Some countries may calculate that if the UK loses the @wto dispute case the UK would have to renegotiate their basic trade terms via Article 28, and offer new concessions in return for @wto certification.
Why cut an FTA deal now when you can hold out for a better one later?^

END

RedToothBrush · 30/07/2018 15:30

'We can just fail back in wto terms. Its easy.'

Perhaps you'd like to explain the above to me and everyone else on the thread.

And help the pesky WTO experts who say they dont really know how its going to pan out.

Moussemoose · 30/07/2018 15:51

Trade, trade deals the WTO etc I don't really understand it. I pay attention and I read but basically I have to pick my experts and trust them.

However, their is stuff I know about and on the stuff I know about Brexit supporters talk bollocks. Their arguments make no sense, they can't back them up and they lack any coherence.

I'm happy to admit the gaps in my knowledge that doesn't make me stupid - knowing what you don't know and being honest is a strength.

Brexit supporters are yet again making arguments they fail to understand and pretending knowledge they don't have. It's a this point someone complains that they are being called stupid and flounces off.

I'm so sad for my children.

Ta1kinpeace · 30/07/2018 15:55

There are two countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms
Venezuela and Cuba
the UK would become the third.

Nuff said.

RedToothBrush · 30/07/2018 16:00

Well that might explain the Corbyn position....

gets coat

Ta1kinpeace · 30/07/2018 16:07

Corbyn has always been anti EU because it started out as an industrial trading bloc so he deemed it a capitalist plot.
He has never grown up enough to realise that its now the best bulwark AGAINST rampant capitalism
(of the type that Rees Mogg and his cronies are looking forward to)

jasjas1973 · 30/07/2018 16:08

So, City of London shrinkage, Deutsche Bank relocate 50% of euro clearing to Frankfurt, European banking and medicines agencies move to Mainland, oh and the European youth orchestra, kicked out of Galileo ad Euro space programs and today the UK loses command of the EU anti piracy naval force in the Indian Ocean
.... its going well and we ve not even left yet !!!! lol!

Forget speculation on WTO or stockpiling, the UK is going backwards right now.

If i d voted leave, i would think i d been well and truly "had"

BigChocFrenzy · 30/07/2018 16:10

Actually, talkinpeace even fewer, um zero atm.
the latest status is that Cuba & Venezuela have succumbed to the evils of capitalism and negotiated deals:
Cuba with CARICOM (the Caribbean) and Venezuela with COlombia and Mexico

Also, Mauritania (with GDP only 0.2% of the UK's GDP), which previously did trade only under WTO, has recently signed 20 preferential trade agreements

So, in the event of no-deal / WTO Brexit,
the UK would be the ONLY country in the world trading on pure WTO terms

That means it would incur punitive tariffs and - even worse - extensive non-tariff barriers, e.g. detailed customs checks
Hence log-jammed ports and delayed UK exports - to all countries, not just the EU

BigChocFrenzy · 30/07/2018 16:14

btw, there is NO aviation fallback in WTO - not covered

Also, the UK would lose its international certification rights,
i.e. to certify our manufactured goods, components, food, even airports, airplanes, ships, pilots, captains, crew ...

So UK airports, flights, ships and ports would be stopped until the Uk negotiates an international emergency fix.

Ta1kinpeace · 30/07/2018 16:16

Gah, silly me, relying on out of date news stories

and Venezuela is doing just fine with inflation running at 1,000,000%
(yes, one million percent a year)

BigChocFrenzy · 30/07/2018 16:21

So, wheelbarrows of notes to buy a loaf of bread, as in the Weimar republic.

If the hardliners in both main parties continue, we may be faced with the choice at the next General Election of
Mumbai on the Thames vs Venezuela on the Thames Confused

Oliversmumsarmy · 30/07/2018 16:24

could cry at the ignorance shown by Brexiteers, both IRL and on this thread. I'm sure if we hadn't had decades of negative, bias rubbish, spouted by most of our press, and just a bit more of the facts ans the positive stuff that goes on, day in day out, TO KEEP OUR COUNTRY RUNNING SMOOTHLY, we would not be coming out

For you the country might have been running smoothly but for a proportion of people it was not and that is the route of the problem. No one actually looked around at the different stratas of society and asked was the EU working for everyone.

Project Fear looked to some like a positive.

Falling house prices, why would that bother someone struggling to pay rent.

No jobs. Again if you haven't got a job and the only things you were "qualified" for went to overseas students leaving might have sounded like a good idea.

Holiday prices going up. For a lot of people whether a holiday was £200 or £2000 they were not going on one any time soon

I worked around the country and met a lot of people who felt being in the EU wasn't giving them any benefits.

Maybe there should have been a concerted effort to actually listen and take on board what those people with nothing to lose had to say the result wouldn't have been such a shock.

Moussemoose · 30/07/2018 16:26

jasjas1973 if you'd voted leave you'd be watching 'Love Island' and wondering where you Daily Fail was. You might also be think what a catch JRM is.

So on the bright side at least you have retained a modicum of sanityWink

Moussemoose · 30/07/2018 16:27

Oliversmumsarmy you mention lots of valid issue all caused by our governments not the EU.

LeftRightCentre · 30/07/2018 16:29

Venezuela and Cuba
the UK would become the third.

What shining examples of good economies, too. Hmm The former is experiencing political instability, again.

bellinisurge · 30/07/2018 16:29

Exactly @Moussemoose . Successive governments messed up. Not the EU. In fact, a lot of the areas which voted Leave were net recipients of investment from the EU. Which will not be matched by Westminster.

StoorieHoose · 30/07/2018 16:30

@oliversmumsarmy. I might have missed it but can you let me know what jobs your friends are now working in that were previously blocked to them?

RedToothBrush · 30/07/2018 16:32

www.thesun.co.uk/money/6893471/crisp-shortage-in-britain-from-heatwave/
Cheese and onion crisps under threat after heatwave causes vegetable shortage

Walkers have already seen a poor potato yield and are preparing for a cheese shortage if there is a no-deal Brexit

CHEESE and onion crisps are under threat due to a looming shortage of the veg.

The heatwave could ruin the onion harvest in the latest blow to makers such as Walkers.

They have already seen a poor potato yield and are preparing for a cheese shortage if there is a no-deal Brexit.

It could force a halt to production of cheese and onion crisps, a British favourite.

Article also mentions that carrots, peas and ­lettuces have also suffered this year.

Moussemoose · 30/07/2018 16:39

CHEESE SHORTAGE

Now hold the fuck on.

We need to take to the streets. Civil unrest - to fucking right.

Cheese shortage that is just one step too far.

I'm looking for my pitchfork, I see you lot on the streets......

bellinisurge · 30/07/2018 16:40

Crisps? Shit! Ok now I'm actually panicking Grin.
Only joking.
Actually, I've had a pretty good crop of spuds so far. Maybe I will try some crisp making efforts. For the good of peace and calm in our house.

LoveInTokyo · 30/07/2018 16:41

Oliversmumsarmy

So what will those people do when Brexit not only fails to fix any of those issues, but it actually makes them worse?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 30/07/2018 16:42

So what will those people do when Brexit not only fails to fix any of those issues, but it actually makes them worse?

Find a new scapegoat?

SusanWalker · 30/07/2018 16:47

Ok I can manage without cheese, but onions? And peas? I eat both of those nearly every day.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/07/2018 16:47

The UK has the greatest inequality of any EU country
and also contains the poorest 9 of the top 10 poorest regions

These facts are related - and have everything to do with the UK's class system, 1980s de-industrialisation, austerity and "I'm all right Jack / Jill" voting
and nothing to do with the EU

Anyone who thinks they had nothing to lose ... may find how untrue that idea was

Moussemoose · 30/07/2018 16:50

What we have to lose is CHEESE!

Why are still tying on MN we have riots to organise.

CHEESE and crisps.......for the love of God how will we manage.?