Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

zsazsajuju

Francine the Eu is a super national body made up of countries.
Thanks, hen.

Will you also be pointing out that Westminster is borough of London to previous posters who used it as common shorthand and widely understand by all but the comically pedantic wimners of Mastermind

I think what is sad is the EU has brought such great benefits to Europe but it is true that it has a complicated structure and it’s easy for the right wing press to create myths and rubbish about it. I think that (plus a racist dislike of foreigners) has caused the economic catastrophe that will be Brexit.

I have other nationalities so will be off with my family but I hope Scotland can win their freedom too. We need to fight this right wing backlash and misinformation before it gets any worse.

Wax - the people in the member states did Oooh, no shit sherlock!

I'm waiting on your evidence first zsaz since I'm too thick to know anything.

And I'm all good for books thanks. I think you maybe need to go have a lie down in a cool room for a bit though.

I see things are still as shite in the world of MN political debates where SNP supporters are concerned so I think I'll leave you to it again. If you think this is garnering support for your cause then you are sadly mistaken.

Francine- people use Westminister to mean the government of the uk. Of course west minister has other meanings but that is the one meant on this thread. There is no equivalent “government”. Of the EU. Seriously, read a book. Or five.

Support for staying in the EU in Scotland shouldn't be mistaken for support for the SNP. After a lot of thought I voted to stay in but I am not an SNP supporter.

Wax on - you said that the SNP didn’t believe in the EU but didn’t dare tell the Scottish people as they thought they were stupid. That’s pretty ridiculous statement that you have no evidence for. I don’t need to disprove it, but if I was, my evidence that they do is that it’s their party policy to be within the EU. So clearly they do believe it.

Please provide some evidence for your hateful statement or just withdraw it.

What cause wax?

You do need to have a good read. About the EU and Snp clearly too! Maybe then you wouldn’t come out with such nonsense.

Good luck with that.

WaxOnFeckOff

Typical SNP response to resort to personal attacks. Aye fair enough Zsaz anyone disagrees or has a different view it's not allowed by big brother the cybernats

Hi WaxOn, this has been very interesting for me. I was told "Awa an tak a fuck tae yersel, hen" and a "supercilious cunt". Friends and family in Scotland who voted "No" in the referendum told me that they had no option but to keep their opinion to themselves because they saw any opposing view get shouted down, insulted, told they were stupid, told to shut up - you've had your answer.

What's interesting is that they like to dish it but can't take it.

The Remain Campaign in England had three highly successful strategies to win people over

1. Tell them that they're stupid / obtuse for not immediately agreeing and shutting up
2. Tell them that they must be racist
3. Tell them that they must be provincial, poor and uneducated

Glad to see things have progressed so wonderfully.

Lol zsaz well I have to say you have given me an excellent laugh. Are you really that naive to believe that a political party having something in their policy is actually because that is what they believe in? Membership of the EU in no way ties in with what the SNP wants, no amount of spin and sticking it in a policy document changes that. It's in there so that people who think that it's too big a job for Scotland to rule themselves will still vote SNP if they think that there is still a layer of protection above that.

Do you really think that all parties believe what they put in their policy documents? That no parties actually just manipulate things to meet their own ends? Or are the SNP morally superior than every other party?

The SNP leadership are very politically astute and intelligent. I might not think they are right but I do give them complete credit for the way they run their political ship. Not so much for everything else ad we clearly don't have the same vision.

zsazsajuju

Francine- people use Westminister to mean the government of the uk. Of course west minister has other meanings but that is the one meant on this thread. There is no equivalent “government”. Of the EU. Seriously, read a book. Or five.

Wait....let me get this straight... what you're saying is that there is one rule for you (obviously Westminster means the government), but a different rule for you (how dare you say Brussels !!!!).

I promise you zsazsajuju that I will now only ever refer to specific commissions, councils and other administrative bodies within the EU and onky use their official designations as referenced in the relevant treaties.

I promise you this zsazsajuju. I promise with all my heart.

But first, Seriously, read a book. Or five...
How many books have you read? Wait...have you also beeen to U N I V E R S I T Y like prettybird? I do get very intimidated by superior intelligence.

I do get very intimidated by superior intelligence.

Well , I suppose that depends on whether you think intelligence should be judged by qualifications. I wouldn't necessarily deem someone to have superior intelligence just by virtue of having gained a degree at uni. it does give a base line and I'm not saying that posters who have degrees don't have superior intelligence, but don't assume that Francine. At least I only got told to read a book not 4 or 5 so clearly I am superior to you :o

zsazsajuju
you won't be winning Mastermind anytime soon
*I think that (plus a racist dislike of foreigners)
Seriously, read a book. Or five

So glad to see such a varied and advanced use of the Remain playbook

1. Tell them that they're stupid / obtuse for not immediately agreeing and shutting up
2. Tell them that they must be racist
3. Tell them that they must be provincial, poor and uneducated

Oh, just realised the new series of OITNB is on Netflix today - that's me sorted. I know I clearly should be reading up more on the SNP policy and the EU but I really can't be arsed...

Voting SNP does not necessarily mean pro-EU. Voting to stay in EU does not necessarily mean pro independence. Voting for independence does not necessarily mean pro SNP. They're all separate questions. However, Scotland will be leaving the EU despite voting to stay in, so meantime the only glimmer of hope for the many Scots who wish to stay in the EU is to support the SNP as they have a commitment to Independence, and to protecting devolved powers.

That doesn't mean that in an independent Scotland they have to continue voting SNP, it may well be that other parties actually blossom once they can formulate policies which aren't restricted by rUK. SNP do want to stay in the EU as it makes economic sense for Scotland.

Yes keep, but Scotland wasn't voting, the UK as a whole was. I think that the vote to stay in the eu was artificially inflated as SNP supporters were told that's what they should vote. I'm not saying they all would, and I have no evidence (before anyone asks) and probably that would be countered by No voters voting to stay. Who knows really, as you say, they are all separate things.

You’re both nuts. Wax - if it’s their policy it’s far far more likely that it’s what the majority of their members believe rather than it being some sort of weird conspiracy. You have no evidence at all for what you are saying as it’s utterly silly.

Francine- “Brussels” doesn’t mean anything. There isn’t any government of the EU. It’s not a country.

I’m afraid you both need to learn something about what you are talking about. Ranting and raving nutty things just makes you seem thick.

Wax, it depends whether you naturally see the UK 'as a whole'. I don't, I see it as 4 separate countries under the 'UK' umbrella. I'm an SNP supporter (there's no alternative party just now), and I was at no time 'told how to vote'. I am pro EU. I am also pro an independent Scotland. If the SNP didn't have these as commitments, I wouldn't vote for them.

lol - cheers, only one person ranting and raving.... and thick

That doesn't mean that in an independent Scotland they have to continue voting SNP, it may well be that other parties actually blossom once they can formulate policies which aren't restricted by rUK

Indeed. Ironically the only thing that can save Tories / Labour in Scotland is independence.

I think the saddest thing about all this is that I have never seen anyone with a decent knowledge of how the EU works be opposed to it. So perhaps some better education is the answer.

But you can’t educate those who don’t want to be educated. Wax and Francine seem quite proud that they have a low level of education. It didn’t used to be like that but there you are.

No wax - at least two

I know what you are saying keep and I'm glad you have something to believe in and can manage to post without resorting to abuse. I know that there are many more like you too.

However, regardless of how you see it, the 4 countries don't exist as entities in the EU, only the UK does (I know you know this) so it's completely irrelevant what the individual countries voted. imo, they should never have allowed the figures to be broken down in that way. For me it's a bit like saying that people in my estate voted differently to the council ward as a whole so it's not fair. At this moment in time I don't have any representation by anyone I have voted for at any level in politics, I just have to suck it up or campaign for what i want next time as that's they way it works. I don't have any political affiliation to any party and I am a floating voter, I have to content myself by voting for the least worst option in every scenario as there aren't any good options or certainly ones that fit with my own views.

zsazsajuju
*Just answer the question Francine- no more racist drivel please
Only if you tell me exactly when I have been racist please.

No wax - at least two

I haven't got round to scrolling back through the thread so I'll take your word for it.

I don't have a low level of education. I have no idea how you deduced that? You make a lot of assumptions. You assumed that I wasn't Scottish and now you are assuming that I have low level of qualifications. I pointed out that someone having a degree (or having attended university) didn't necessarily mean they had a superior intelligence.