Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

Can't remember the details mother but iirc, the Indyref was indeed held sooner than the SNP would have (ideally) chosen. This was because they broke the d'Hondt system unexpectedly won an overall majority in the 2011 Holyrood elections and therefore had to follow through on their manifesto commitment strange concept that

I think Cameron/the media did try to push Salmond to hold the Indyref sooner rather than later - but Salmond held to "holding it in the latter half of the Scottish parliamentary term" (I think but don't hold me to it he'd something to that effect during the election campaign).

During the previous 2007 Minority SNP Scottish Government, Wendy Alexander, at the time leader of the Scottish Labour Party, did try to tell the SNP to "bring it on" and hold a referendum but a) she got slapped down by the Labour Party and b) the SNP weren't ready and weren't going to be bounced in to it.

2017 results
Conservatives got 13,636,684 votes , so 316 MP = 43,154 votes per MP
Liberal Democrats got 2,371,861 votes, so 12 MP = 197, 655 votes per MP
No denying the arithmetic. My question is what does it prove?

It could just be in Liberal Democrat seats all the anti-Tory votes unite.

LoveinTokyo - in the (c470 paper) White Paper "Scotland's Future", which was produced well in advance of the Indyref (another strange concept there: producing a White Paper in advance of a Referedum so that people know what they are voting for_ ) it was proposed that the parliament in an independent Scotland would continue to have a PR system similar to the one in Holyrood (which is a hybrid FPTP constituency and d'Hondt regional list to reflect the proportional voting).

One of the things I disagreed with the White Paper was that, iirc, it proposed a unicameral parliament. Given that it has been proven that the d'Hondt system can be broken, then the necessary checks and balances of the Committee system then doesn't work properly to provide proper oversight of legislation.

It could just be in Liberal Democrat seats all the anti-Tory votes unite.

You could say that about anything, because there's no proof. You could equally (and probably far more accurately) say that millions of people who would like to vote Lib Dem vote for whichever of the Tories or Labour they see as the lesser evil because they know the Lib Dems can't win in their constituency.

The only way you really know how many people support what is to have a PR system where everyone's vote counts equally so they can vote for what they actually want rather than being reduced to tactical voting.

Oops -autocorrect fail - c470 page

I can't see that Cameron coming back would achieve anything. I remember thinking how thin his achievements were in his resignation speech - most of the things he was proud of had been LibDem policies.

When I respond I copy and paste actual words used

With a remarkable ability to misunderstand/twist/take out of context.

And a tone which in RL I’m willing to bet you wouldn’t use.

FYI:

During the process of primary legislation in the house of commons the Whole House votes at the First Reading. The Whole House votes at the Second Reading. The Whole House votes at Report stage. The Whole House votes at the Third reading. Then the process is moved to the House of Lords.

Just because their is a committee of 'English only' MPs that look at English only matters does stop Scottish, Welsh and N.Irish MPs having their say and voting on 'English only' matters at EVERY stage of legislation.

So Scottish MPs get to have their say on English schools and English hospitals etc but English MPs do not get a say on Scottish schools and Scottish hospitals. There is an unfair power balance in FAVOUR of Scottish MPs and the SNP milk it for all its worth.

Actually you missed the “English grand committee stage” which was introduced through EVEL and which involves the suspension of parliament while English MPs (solely English MPs) vote after the stages you mentioned.

So once again, you’ve half read something, taken what you want from it and presented it as fact. Making you look a bit silly really, since you’re banging on and on and making very little sense.

It was first used in the Commons in 2016 on a Housing and Planning bill.

So for the last time for the hard of thinking, EVEL means that only English MPs get the final say on a Bill becoming law.

Will that stop whinging that “it’s so unfair!”? A la Kevin the teenager?

Probably not, I mean why let actual facts get in the way of a good xenophobic rant

@FrancinePefko42 Ask any British exporter (who sells in Euros) if they are unhappy about the weaker pound.

Have you actually spoken to any exporters?

Only read the first page but wanted to comment on this. I meet exporters all the time through my job, Brexit rarely comes up because it's not what I'm there for but I've yet to meet an exporter who is enthusiastic, or even positive about it. Its starting to create real problems for them now as customers abroad are reluctant to sign contracts that run after Brexit date because they don't know what the regulatairy environment will be, so order books after March 2019 are empty. At the same time Brexit has created a boom and exporters that I've spoken to are working at full capacity (and more) to try to keep up. This is nothing to do with the £ though, customers have brought forward orders and ordered extra to get supplies made and delivered before Brexit date.

http://evel.uk/how-does-evel-work/

For those that want to check out how it works and form their own judgement.

In addition to the England-only Grand Committee stage (which only English MPs can be members of) , for England only legislation, a "double majority" is required: "in any division, a majority of both UK MPs and_ those representing constituencies in England (or England and Wales) must vote in support of a proposal for it to be approved.__"

That’s a better explanation of it. Seems a bit pointless then if it can be overruled though, although I suppose there has to be caveats to stop anything getting pushed through.

YeTalkShiteHen , you didn't read my answer then because I mentioned the committee of 'English' only MPs , which is before the Third Reading of the Whole House. This does NOT give English MPs the right or ability to put through legislation without consent from the WHOLE HOUSE. Therefore Scottish MPs have a say in what happens in English schools and hospitals.

Why do you think it is right for Scottish MPs to have that power over England but English MPs dont have that power in Scotland?

So once again you've drunk the SNP koolaid and are trying to present it as fact.

EVEL means that only English MPs get the final say on a Bill becoming law
That is a blatant lie. IT DOES NOT, the whole house votes on a bill at Third Reading.

Thank you prettybirdm (xpost), I hope that stops YeTalkShiteHen from talkin shite.

So once again you've drunk the SNP koolaid and are trying to present it as fact

Should have known better than to come on to a thread on here about Scotland. The shite that is allowed to stand is unreal.

I don’t give a fuck what you think, nor what you want, if you think it’s so awful and Scotland is so dreadful maybe ask yourself exactly why your bloody government shat it so spectacularly and cobbled together the lies in the Better Together campaign?

You don’t want us, that much is clear. So do something about it, lobby your MP, write to parliament, do whatever.

But frankly you whinging that it’s not fair is laughable considering what we’ve had to put up with in the so called union. The fact that England/Britain are used interchangeably as if they’re the same thing is a pretty good indicator of opinion.

But asking me to give a shit about English politics? As you so succinctly put it, it’s nothing to do with Scotland (paraphrased obviously) so tell me, why are you whining at me?

Don’t like it, do something about it. But expecting Scottish people to do it is a bit rich no?

Having read it all in full I’ve just realised EVEL is a completely pointless piece of legislation designed to appease people like you who whinge and bitch about devolution. But it actually changes nothing.

Which is quite funny when you think about it. All showboating and making a point while actually being of little or no use. Sound familiar?

I wasn't supporting you fangirl - I was pointing out that there was also a requirement for a majority of English MPs (as well as UK MPs), so Scottish MPs can't dictate English policy.

I hadn't even (yet) made the point that almost all English policy does impact on Scotland. Any change in, for example, the NHS, which has an impact on NHS budgets has a knock-on effect on the Scottish budget due to the Barnett formula.

Now if you were to argue the case for Full Fiscal Autonomy, with Scotland only having to contribute its share of "defence of the realm" even if that meant including the cost of Trident , then I might agree with you. A proper federal structure might have saved the UK.

I’ve just realised EVEL is a completely pointless piece of legislation designed to appease people like you who whinge and bitch about devolution. But it actually changes nothing.

Yes you have finally got it.

prettybird, I never said Scottish MPs can dictate policy on English only matters. What I have said is that they get to have 'their say' and voting on English only matters. Something that English MPs cannot do on many issues in Scotland.

Something that English MPs cannot do on many issues in Scotland.

Only important ones like the devolved powers being taken back to Westminster without the consent either of the cohort of Scottish MPs or Holyrood

Yes you have finally got it

Unlike you getting what you so dearly want, oh thanks for that laugh today I really needed it. Your bitterness is very very funny.

As stated upthread almost all English policy affects us, the post Brexit power grab will affect us massively and negatively, and despite having a huge number of MPs cannot do anything about it.

So forgive me for really not giving a flying fuck about your petulant little complaints based on nothing more than resentment.

At least we have a way out in the pipeline!

The thing is with EVEL and the whole West Lothian question...

It’s not fair, of course it’s not, but, the only fair way to resolve that is to do proper devolution, all member states have their own parliament for devolved powers and Westminster only has power over things are are truly to do with the whole union...

So a federal system effectively.

But governments in Westminster don’t want that, so...

But that isn’t the fault of Scotland or people who want independence or SNP MPs.

So while they’re in Parliament the should take part or it’s a complete waste of time engaging in politics at all.

prettybird

I missed your post earlier about the proposed voting system for Scotland, thanks for that.

Btw I agree it is very hypocritical that the same people who said Scotland’s independence plan wasn’t detailed enough are now seemingly happy to support Brexit with no discernable plan at all.

LoveInTokyo

Why do you say 56 MPs for the SNP?
The total number of votes the SNP got was indeed 977,568 but this resulted in 35 seats not 56. Meaning that the SNPs "SNP votes per SNP MP is"
27, 930.

So it took 27,930 votes to elect an SNP MP to Westminster.
It took 42,880 votes to elect a Conservative MP to Westminster.

I don't understand the point. Please explain.
My source for figures:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results

Sorry, I must have messed up and quoted the SNP figures for 2015 instead of 2017.

The broader point still stands though.