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Brexit

Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

674 replies

FrancinePefko42 · 21/07/2018 10:04

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

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FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:25

prettybird
"Spend an enjoyable evening last night catching up with a friend from Uni"
Wait.Hmm Let Bear meBlush getConfused thisWink straightSad.
You're Shocksaying Smileyou Halowent FlowerstoFootball universityHalo?

ShockShockShock

You hardly ever feel the need to mention your education. Grin

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FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:31

prettybird
I'd actually meant to put in "I'm paraphrasing and summarising" so mea culpa but that was in essence what you (and fangirl ) have been implying: that England doesn't get a say or to vote on Scottish matters (but Brussels does confused) - when the contrary is blatantly and explicitly true

Translation:
"You did not ay what I accused you of saying but because it fits with the story in my own head, I will continue to say you implied it"

You'll make a great SNP politician pretty bird.

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FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:32

say

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FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:38

LoveInTokyo
I wish there was a way of forcing the moon faced pig fucker Cameron to come back and sort out the mess he left behind

I am no fan of Cameron. But can I just please check that you and others are happy to bring politicians' looks into the debate? Do you want me to start on Nicola Sturgeon?

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FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:43

LoveInTokyo
The only way you really know how many people support what is to have a PR system where everyone's vote counts equally so they can vote for what they actually want rather than being reduced to tactical voting.

Nick Clegg* absolutely blew his chances on that one. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for PR any time soon.

*He was / is a handsome beast though. Seeing as we're now bringing politicians' looks into the equation, I thought I'd start on a positive. Grin

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LoveInTokyo · 27/07/2018 18:43

Happy to amend that to just “pig fucker” if “moon faced” offends you?

FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:44

No it doesn't offend me at all. I didn't like him. But this had nothing to do with his looks.

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FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 18:49

KennDodd
"FrancinePefko42 Ask any British exporter (who sells in Euros) if they are unhappy about the weaker pound."

Have you actually spoken to any exporters?
Yes. Very close to home actually. The weaker pound has made a very positive forex benefit.

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Peregrina · 27/07/2018 19:09

Nick Clegg* absolutely blew his chances on that one. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for PR any time soon.

Technically AV isn't a PR system, but yes, he should have told Cameron that the Coalition is off and go for a Confidence and Supply arrangement.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 27/07/2018 20:37

The thing about plans for independence, for Scotland (from the UK) or the UK (from the EU), is that they are not worth he paper they are written on. You can write all sorts of Utopian crap on papyrus, but as soon as a negotiation starts its just used to wipe their bottoms.

So anything TM, Salmond or even Sturgeon writes in some sort of document, we might as well treat is as gibberish because one side does not get to determine the outcome.

I do wonder if Scotland voted to leave the UK by 52% but wasn't able to get a good deal sorted with the UK would it be happy to drive off a cliff edge? Interesting to hear what Scottish people think.

FrancinePefko42 · 27/07/2018 21:21

Peregrina
Technically AV isn't a PR system, but yes, he should have told Cameron that the Coalition is off and go for a Confidence and Supply arrangement

Well you'd have thought he would have known what to ask for in his once in a lifetime opportunity to get rid of FPTP. I thought Remainers were all super bright and educated.

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Peregrina · 27/07/2018 23:06

I imagine that there was a lot of horse trading going on, but I happen to think that Clegg was naive.

Do you have to put insults in all posts?

FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 07:50

No.
As I've said, several times, I am happy to stick to the topic of the thread.

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ManicStreetTeacher · 28/07/2018 08:08

"retaining the ties with England".
You do know that rUK isn't just England, right? 🤦‍♀️

FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 08:13

Yes

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prettybird · 28/07/2018 09:34

In response to fangirl - Scotland leaving the UK is a different situation to the UK leaving the EU.

In the latter case, the state is making a choice to leave a club and therefore the benefits of that club that it previously enjoyed. In the former case, Scotland is choosing to leave a union in which it co-owns the assets.

I suppose Westminster could indeed choose to be particularly awkward but I don't think that there would be a cliff edge. By that argument, Ireland or India shouldn't have become independent because they didn't know the terms of the final deal Confused

The Scottish banks could withdraw the collateral they lodge with the Bank of England (which despite its name is not English but is the central bank for the UK) in order to be allowed to print their own money (the apocryphal "million pound notes" Grin) - which would probably cause a run on the pound, but is in no-one's benefit.

Personally, I think that it would be best if independence were voted for 60:40 in favour. On a 85% turnout (like last time), that would still be a majority of the electorate unlike the result of the EU Campaign I've heard Nicola saying that she would rather not go into another Indyref campaign until the polls were suggesting 60:40 support for independence (but there again, I suspect she might be bumped into it by events).

However, as an alternative example, Malta only voted in favour of independence by 54% (not that long after voting in favour of joining the UK properly Confused - although the result was influenced by a campaign to boycott it). There were dire predictions about how Malta could never survive on its own. It's had its problems (mostly political) since then but I don't see a clamour within Malta to give up its independence Hmm

Francine as ever is doing a wonderful job demonstrating why many people want independence. His or her gratuitous insults do the Unionist cause no favours. Hmm

FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 10:40

FlowersprettybirdFlowersFlowers

Francine as ever is doing a wonderful job demonstrating why many people want independence. His or her gratuitous insults do the Unionist cause no favours. hmm

ISmile knowGrin I am Shockthe obtuseConfused one, but I Sadthink I have HmmstatedBlush several times that if the Scottish people vote for independence I would wish them well.

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FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 10:43

Quoting myself from the very first page of this thread.
We would wish you well if you decide to go it alone. I am just interested in the logic of then wanting to join the EU.

FlowersBearFootballStarHaloGin

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Keeptrudging · 28/07/2018 11:17

It's logical to want to retain freedom of movement, trade and co-operation with the countries nearest you who have the same standards and rights and broadly similar systems. It's also more environmentally friendly to ship goods to/from closer countries.

It's logical to want the country you live in to have a voice within that and a seat at the table with the other EU countries.

prettybird · 28/07/2018 11:46

But as ever, Francine - you a) ignore the fact that that wasn't your original question and the answers to which you resolutely ignore and b) that your "best wishes for our future" are hidden within snarky comments - which include your continued and gratuitous insults. Hmm

But posts like your help make the case for independence as many of us have had the vehicle to post the positive case Smile .... and it's not just been me doing so Grin (nor is it just me that has noticed your propensity to insult others)

So thank you. Flowers

Peregrina · 28/07/2018 11:57

As one who lives in England but with some Scottish relatives, I find the debate about Independence interesting. I don't know exactly how I feel about whether Scotland should be independent or not, so it's useful to see the debate. I don't find Francine's contributions very helpful.

FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 17:42

BearFlowers prettybird FlowersBear
"But as ever, Francine - you a) ignore the fact that that wasn't your original question"

This Grin wasHmm myShock original Confused questionBlush

Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?
From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.
Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England

What Star factHmm am Angry I Smile ignoringSad???

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FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 17:49

FlowersFlowersprettybirdFlowersFlowers

"the answers to which you resolutely ignore"

I read every answer when I get time and respond. This is a discussion forum. You were one of the first to respond. I asked further question. That does not mean I am "resolutely ignoring" previous answers. It means I am interested in hearing other views and further exploring the points made.

If you think I should have bowed twice and walked backwards as soon as you have given "an" not the answer - get GrinoverGrin itGrin.

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prettybird · 28/07/2018 17:54

As has been stated repeatedly and not just by me, that question has been answered multiple times, with examples - but you either didn't like or chose to ignore the answers Hmm.

I'm not going to repeat the answers: if you can't be bothered to RTFT, others can read it - so this thread (and your attitude) is helpful to the cause of independence Flowers

Feel free to continue to use the emoticons - your use of them helps people understand the sort of person you are.

FrancinePefko42 · 28/07/2018 17:58

FlowersBearprettybirdBearFlowers

Again, quoting myself:
"So, to be clear, I would support Scottish independence and wish you well.
This thread ia questioning the logic of leaving one union to join another"

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