Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

What is the logic? Simple, in the UK our voices are totally ignored, our democratic decisions over ruled without consent, our representatives in WM shouted down and ridiculed. In the EU as an independent country we would have as much say as anyone else.

What currency? My preference would be a new one. We wouldn't have to join the Euro and as has been pointed out, we couldn't even if we wanted to. Much of the problems Greece encountered are down to them not having control of their own money, and their previously noted propensity to evade the taxes they themselves set.

More logic. The EU is a vastly bigger market than rUK. And we could sell to them with our recognised and respected product origin protections.

More logic. We wouldn't be asset stripped and mocked for ensuing poverty. We wouldn't be accused of scrounging our own money. We wouldn't have our borders arbitrarily altered. We wouldn't have a national broadcasting service telling us about our neighbour's news and conflating it with ours. We would be governed by people we elect and not over ruled by our next door neighbours. We could put our money into renewables instead of renovating WM and Buck House...

I can't understand why anyone would remain under WM rule, with the current utter fuck ups in charge. Surely we couldn't do any worse ourselves.

There are many small countries doing well in the EU (without the added bonus of oil). Scotland is rich in natural resources comparatively. It beggars belief that we keep being told we couldn't manage by ourselves. We've got thriving food, tourism, tech, service industries.

As for Greece, having been there a few times, their economy seems to be based on avoiding tax/banks and using cash only. Speaking to Greeks, they seem to really grudge paying tax, whilst complaining about lack of services. Their economy is improving though.

OP, what's your positive case for Scotland staying in the UK and crashing out of the EU? Why should we do that? Come on, persuade us nasty nats with your unassailable logic.

Keeptrudging
*Tbh, this currency question comes up time after time. It's irrelevant to me, what I'm more concerned about is how far my currency will go when I'm buying food, or petrol, paying bills etc.

Where will the key decisions be made that determine how far my currency
will go?

The Scottish pound linked to sterling, or euro, or dollar
So interest rates set in by central banks of foreign countries will determine how far "your currency" will go when you're buying things in Scotland.

Is that the freedom you've been dreaming of?

HirplesWithHaggis
OP, what's your positive case for Scotland staying in the UK

I don't have one.

The English taxpayer would be far better off not having to subsidise free tuition and prescriptions in Scotland while not enjoying these benefits themselves in England. We could rectify the historical anomaly of Scotland being massively over represented in the UK Parliament and getting to vote on English issues when English MPs have no say over Scottish one.

So, to be clear, I would support Scottish independence and wish you well.
This thread ia questioning the logic of leaving one union to join another.

Keeptrudging

It beggars belief that we keep being told we couldn't manage by ourselves

Not by me. I hope you are able to "manage by yourselves" and would wish you well if that's what a majority of the Scottish people decide.

My question is why does "manage by ourselves" mean join the EU?

HirplesWithHaggis your post from Today 15:30
Beginning What is the logic? Simple, in the UK our voices are totally ignored, our democratic ...

Most of these points are an argument for leaving the UK which I am not contesting

I am asking why / how ir makes sense for you to join the EU?

The only point you make which is relevant to the question being asked is

More logic. The EU is a vastly bigger market than UK. And we could sell to them with our recognised and respected product origin protections

As a PP has pointed out 70% of your trade is with England.

Why do you think the English taxpayer subsidises Scotland?

Analysis of the last 50 years of Scottish tax revenues by a unionist academic trying to prove England subsidised Scotland shows that we are a net contributor. The Treasury also assigns revenue incorrectly, which is why 2 years ago they made a correction showing over 14 billion pounds worth of oil revenue had been incorrectly allocated to England. Any whisky shipped from rUK instead of directly from Scotland is not counted as Scottish tax revenue, and each bottle is 78% tax.

So we can afford to be in the EU if we wish, and as Scotland voted 68% to remain that is what should happen.

Staying in the UK union means we can't exercise that choice. A union which denies you democracy, under any pretext, costs you money and won't even let your elected representatives speak on Scottish matters, is not one to remain in voluntarily.

Thank you for your response, and I'm glad you see the sense in us leaving the UK. The logic for remaining/rejoining the EU is access to a much larger market, freedom of movement, retaining international flights, maintaining the 750-odd trade agreements we already have and all the other good stuff Remainers want.

There's no such thing as a totally "independent" country any more. Any trade agreement - and Leavers want plenty of them - means giving up a little "freedom". In the EU there would be consultations with us, and even if we're outvoted at least we'll have been heard. Not so with WM.

Coffeethrowtrampbitch
So we can afford to be in the EU if we wish

I will happily take your "evidence" at face value even though you don't cite the mystery academic.

Good so you can go it alone. Great in fact. All power to you.
But you still haven't provided any logic as to why it makes sense logically to join the EU.

HirplesWithHaggis
retaining international flights

Please explain this one.

Those favouring independence do so more from an emotional position than an economic one. A major factor behind the emotion can be traced back to the fact that so many English hold us in complete contempt. You're doing a very good job of demonstrating that contempt. Awa an tak a fuck tae yersel hen.

Why is this even a question anyone asks?

You clearly understand how both unions work, so you understand that they are completely different, that they don’t work in the same way or do the same things...

It’s not illogical at all to say, actually I don’t like the terms of this Union, but I’m ok with this other one.

You've been answered - politely - multiple times now by different people. They've all said the same thing.

You might not like the answer - but it is what many Scottish people feel and the evidence is there in both Westminster's procedures and in the EU's rules.

But thank you for giving us the opportunity to point this out multiple times

If we crash out of the EU at the end of March next year without a deal, as is looking increasingly likely, we also crash out of Open Skies agreements - we will have no right to overfly or land in other countries. Our safety certificates may no longer be recognised, the qualifications of our pilots ditto. This will somewhat limit international flights, at least until we get new arrangements in place. They only started advertising for negotiators a month or so ago...

If Scotland stays in /rejoins the EU/ends up in the sort of "holding pen" described by EU last time round, our flights won't be affected.

@FrancinePefko42

How many more times would you like your question answered 🙄

tabulahrasa

Why is this even a question anyone asks?
Because questions are one mechanism by which we test the clarity and rigour of thinking, Asking questions about the EU and a desire to join it is not illegal or even against MN rules.

You clearly understand how both unions work, so you understand that they are completely different, that they don’t work in the same way or do the same things...
Agreed.

It’s not illogical at all to say, actually I don’t like the terms of this Union, but I’m ok with this other one

The point of this thread is:

What makes you OK with the EU (given your stated desire for autonomy and independence and to manage by yourselves)

ny20005
How many more times would you like your question answered?

Once.

As long as the answer has clarity, cohesion, logic - and actually answers the question being asked instead of a different one.

How will the UK get back its sovereignty when this government are busy trying to make deals with Trump, and numerous other countries which are going to undercut us with products produced more cheaply/with less regulations. Do people really think these far-flung countries are going to want to import the products we currently export to the EU? In order to compete, we'd have to drop prices, standards, wages and worker's rights.

I'd rather be independent in the EU, complete with regulations, than beholden to Trump or relying on importing inferior products.

Keeptrudging

How will the UK get back its sovereignty...?
Who knows?
Feel free to start your own thread to speculate on that point.

This thread is requesting the Logic of Scotland leaving one Union (the United Kingdom) and joining another (the European Union)?

“What makes you OK with the EU (given your stated desire for autonomy and independence and to manage by yourselves)”

They’re completely different unions with completely different terms and work in completely different ways, they are not directly comparable.

If you want different answers than the ones you have, you need to ask a logical question.

Francine is the gift that keeps on giving

What makes you OK with the EU (given your stated desire for autonomy and independence and to manage by yourselves)

Because the EU would in no way inhibit our autonomy (any more than any other trading partner), independence or ability to manage by ourselves.

I see the EU more as a group of countries working cooperatively together. As with any group, there will be disagreements, but these are discussed and worked on together. Scotland is not in a 'union of equals' as part of the UK. Scotland is overwhelmingly ignored, milked for revenue and does not (ever) get the government it voted for. What's in it for us?