Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

Easy: we'd actually have a voice and a formal say. Even QMV (let along trade deals which require unanimous agreement) would be better than the current situation at Westminster where, even if every single Scottish MP disagrees with what the Government proposes, it still gets bulldozed through implemented.

Look at the recent situation where the part of the Withdrawal Bill which deals with Scotland - taking back devolved powers for seven years - was debated for a whole 30 minutes and not a single Scottish MP got to speak

Europe is a partnership - Westminster is not

I'm Scottish, I want to stay in the EU (as do the majority of Scots). I think it benefits us economically and gives us opportunities to work/study/travel abroad which will be seriously affected if we leave the EU. Brexit is a total, utter shambles. We're not going to get a good deal, it's going to impact everyone, and it's been carried out in a fraudulent/deceitful way.

I truly hope Scotland can extricate itself from being dragged down by Tory policies that we overwhelmingly didn't vote for.

prettybird
Easy: we'd actually have a voice and a formal say

Really? You would have one vote on the council. You would have fewer MEPs than Yorkshire has now in the European Parliament.

In Westminster you have more MPs than Yorkshire even though your economy and population is smaller.

One vote is better than no vote. Removal of EU regulations in areas such as food standards, employment rights, medicine is a huge concern.

Removal of EU regulations in areas such as food standards, employment rights, medicine is a huge concern

Do you think the concern is proportionate?
How effective were EU food standards in preventing Romanian horsemeat being passed of as beef in ready meals?

With regard to Employee Rights do you imagine we will immediately go back to the the days of children in factories. Soon after the industrial revolution, Great Britain led the way in introducing legislation to protect workers - far more protective than anything they had on continental Europe.

Macron is one of a long line of French presidents desperately trying to rein in the power of the unions and some employees' rights which are widely recognised as holding the French economy. Ask anyone who has worked in a global business which country is always the hardest / most awkward to get things done e.g. closing unproductive plants or letting under performing employees go.

Medicinal regs - again, do you think we will go back to t people being able to sell opium laden elixirs town to own from the back of a covered wagon?

Europe is a partnership - Westminster is not

This^ We may have fewer representatives, but we would have an equal say

Why ask the question if you're not interested in the answer?

Precisely op:
They’re happy to be ruled by anyone as long as it’s not the English.

The SNP are simply stirring up anti English emotionalism to suit their own political agenda. There is no credible case for independence in Scotland.
We would start with a 12% deficit, no currency, no cash reserves to set one up, no central bank. Unable to meet our own public sector pension bill, benefits bill and fund our own NHS, and we’d be outside both the EU and the U.K.
Spain would veto any attempt by Scotland to rejoin the EU, as it would create a precedent for their own Catalonian separatists.
70% of Scots trade is with the rest of the U.K. We would need a hard border and customs post at Berwick.
The whole idea is ridiculous. Which is why the SNP LOST the independence referendum in 2014.
Which incidentally wasted £6million if taxpayers’ money. If they want another, they can bloody well pay for it themselves!

I am interested. I just haven't heard a coherent answer yet.

Europe is a partnership. Westminster is not

What does that mean? If you read Yanis Varoufakis's latest book you will know that the EU sees their role in Greece and many other smaller nations /economies as anything but a partnership. The Greeks have been told in no uncertain terms about how they need to comply by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and bankers in Frankfurt.

Is that the "Freedom" (of Mel Gibson's "Braveheart") you dream of?

*ItsAllGoingToBeFine

We may have fewer representatives, but we would have an equal say

Could you please explain the mathematics of that statement. You think an independent nation smaller than Yorkshire (in terms of GDP and population) will have an "equal say" in the EU on a par with Germany and France?

How?

Just look how the smaller countries that adopted the Euro have / are suffering because it favours the German economy by design

EU countries are independent sovereign states.

You didn’t believe Farage/Boris/IDS etc when they said we weren’t, did you? If you did, more fool you.

i agree with you OP that there is a logical inconsistency in the nationalist argument. Anyone who was in Scotland during the independence referendum knows that the nationalist argument was completely centred on the People of Scotland making their own choices about their own destiny, and to do that we need to be independent and not in a Union.

Being in the EU (and I am a remainer) inevitably means giving up some autonomy and some making of your own choices. A union inevitably means going along with a consensus, even if you don't agree with it.

Scottish Nationalism is a faith, not a coherent political programme, so you won't get far trying to have a logical discussion about this.

It's generally pretty well accepted, though, that a fair number of SNP voters and members (including elected representatives) voted Leave. Representatives of rural and coastal communities in particular were desperate to get out of the EU for the same short sighted reasons as their English and Welsh counterparts.

It's all a moot point though because even if we did have another indie ref (we won't in the near future) and they somehow won (they won't) Spain will block us from EU membership.

I've already given you a concrete example.

You might not think that having those devolved powers taken away without agreement is not important in the grand scheme of things. We do.

Personally, I don't want fracking in Scotland - especially in the heavily populated Central belt of Scotland. The power to stop that is one of the ones that has been taken from us.

It's not anti-English - there are many English in Scotland who support Independence. It's anti-Westminster. The Indyref vote was also won on the threat that "Scotland would have to leave the EU" I wasn't able to convince one friend (and her family) that the greater risk to Scotland's membership of the EU was if we remained part of the UK but did extract a promise that she would campaign for independence if that risk came to pass (a promise she has stood by )

It's not just the SNP who want independence. The Scottish Greens do too - hence the Indy supporting majority in Holyrood. There are also "Labour for Independence" groups (who were active during the Indyref campaign) and even Tories in favour of Indepence (Michael Fry is one of the higher profile examples).

LoveInTokyo
EU countries are independent sovereign states
How well as the independence and sovereignty of Greece served it over the last decade? How well has Brussels listened to the voice of the Greek electorate? On three separate occasions unelected bureaucrats have told the "independent and sovereign" nation of Greece to go fuck itself.

What makes you think they would treat an independent Scotland any differently?

prettybird you might be heartened to hear that many on the Leave side in England would also be delighted to see Scotland get its independence. You get far more of the share of English tax payers' money than Yorkshire. You are disproportionately represented in the Westminster parliament and your MPs get to vote on matters affecting England.

We would wish you well if you decide to go it alone.

I am just interested in the logic of then wanting to join the EU.

The majority of Greeks still want to stay in the EU.

We were in Greece in 2015 during the referendum about the bail out and spoke with many, many Greeks about it (both before and after the result). We were on Levkada - in the Ionian Islands where the hatred of Germans runs deep after their experience during WW2. They were a bit resentful of Germany (but still drove German cars ) but much more so of the succession of Greek governments that had got them into the debt situation that required the bailout.

And acknowledged that part of the problem was their own propensity to evade paying tax

prettybird
The majority of Greeks still want to stay in the EU.

No shit Sherlock.

They're now incapable of surviving without it. So "sovereign and independent" for Greece actually means "De facto colony of Germany"

The UK economy is not doing well. Rate of growth is lowest out of all EU countries. Value of sterling has fallen dramatically. Exchange rate this morning for Euros was £1 - €1.09, pretty shocking considering it used to be almost £1 - €2. I don't by any stretch of the imagination consider the UK economy to be 'strong and stable' or well-managed. The country is being asset-stripped, with Brexit being used as a way to sell off the NHS and remove pesky worker's rights, plus flood the country with cheap imported food on the back of dodgy trade deals. I trust the EU far more than our government when it comes to the direction things are going. We are going to be completely isolated once we leave.

FWIW - even if the UK were staying in the EU, it wouldn't be allowed to join the Eurozone as our debt (and deficit) means we don't fulfil the criteria

Not saying that's a good or bad thing .....although Sweden, which has committed to join the Euro, strangely never quite seems to achieve the necessary criteria

Keeptrudging
The UK economy is not doing well....
What relevance do any of your following points have on the question posed on this thread .. "What is the logic* of leaving on union to join another?"

*That's even if your believe all of the points you make are actually negative about staying in the UK. Ask any British exporter (who sells in Euros) if they are unhappy about the weaker pound.

prettybird
FWIW - even if the UK were staying in the EU, it wouldn't be allowed to join the Eurozone as our debt (and deficit) means we don't fulfil the criteria

No Shit Sherlock again.
We dodged a bullet by staying out of the Euro.

The fact that we would not meet current entry requirements is totally irrelevant.

The question is how well would an independent Scotland do against those entry requirements?

If you don't have the Euro what currency will you use?

We can use the Scottish pound linked to sterling, or euro, or dollar. We could use euros. Tbh, this currency question comes up time after time. It's irrelevant to me, what I'm more concerned about is how far my currency will go when I'm buying food, or petrol, paying bills etc. At the moment, with the UK economy the way it is, food prices and bills rising, petrol too, my disposable income is worth less. Whether my money has the queens head on it doesn't matter.