Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

According to the press, wikileaks says he did...

I watched Outlander and it could have been because of a particularly nasty scene towards the end of season 1.

I lived in Scotland for many years and still have very close friends there. Most voted to remain in the UK because they didn't want to be potentially isolated from Europe. Now with Brexit, Scotland risks being even more isolated: far from WM (and with potentially less devolved powers) and also far from the continent. So now the mood has changed and for them independence feels like a risk worth taking.

Wow, just googled it, didn't know that!
I remember whilst watching it with dh, having the discussion about whether it would have been an influence or not.
Agree with many pp, the 2 unions are not comparable. I voted yes and remain, and will vote yes again.

“The logic of leaving one Union to join another”

Hmm. Best way I can to explain it is this...

A woman is forced to marry a violent man who then proceeds to treat her badly, ignores her wishes, disrespects her and publicly ridicules and humiliates her. Whilst stealing her money and resources and forcing her children to flee home. He does give her housekeeping money sometimes but never shuts up about how grateful she should be for this. He never acknowledges he stole a lot of her land and gave it to his kids at the exclusion of her kids.

However, she later meets a nice man, who asks her opinion, treats her with a bit of respect, and shows some appreciation of culture and education. She is actually attracted to this man.

So when the opportunity arises she leaves the man who forced himself on her and marries the one she actually fancies and has something in common with.

Basically, there are good marriages and bad marriages. A good marriage increases a person’s autonomy and ability to meet their goals. A bad marriage diminishes theses things.

I wish I had not read this thread. Posts like the OP, makes me feel very unwelcome in the uk. If people really hope Scotland leave, then I am happy to vote leave the next time. Divisive posts like this are just awful.

GreatBlueOwl I'm sorry you feel unwelcome in the UK, but what has that to do with Scottish independence? You're more likely to be welcomed in an independent Scotland than in rUK out of the EU.

(You're also considerably more likely to have a vote, since EU citizens were part of the franchise for indyref but not for EUref.)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Erm, these things are always done per head or it is meaningless

By your reasoning, the "largest" three economies in the world are

1. Monaco $187,650
2. Liechtenstein $157,040
3. Luxembourg $116, 745

(GDP per person USD 2014) In the "per person" calculation, USA is #14, Japan is #34. China and India don't even make it to the Top 60. Smaller population developed countries get an advantage (which us why countries like Norway, Qatar, Macau, Bermuda, Switzerland all appear in the Top 10 (2014 figures)

If you look at the overall size of economies, the top 3 are

1. USA $17,348B
2. China $10,431B
3. Japan $4,596B

(GDP, $bn, 2014) Germany is #4, UK is #5, India is #9

Fantastic analogy @TooTrueToBeGood

ThisIsHistory The logic of leaving one Union to join another

A woman is forced to marry a violent man who then proceeds to treat her badly, ignores her wishes, disrespects her and publicly ridicules and humiliates her. Whilst stealing her money and resources and forcing her children to flee home. He does give her housekeeping money sometimes but never shuts up about how grateful she should be for this. He never acknowledges he stole a lot of her land and gave it to his kids at the exclusion of her kids.

However, she later meets a nice man, who asks her opinion, treats her with a bit of respect, and shows some appreciation of culture and education. She is actually attracted to this man.

So when the opportunity arises she leaves the man who forced himself on her and marries the one she actually fancies and has something in common with.

Is that logic? Or a highly emotive, subjective analysis?

IllHaveALargeGlassOfRed
Fantastic analogy @TooTrueToBeGood**

You are I think the fourth pp to agree with the depiction of Scotland as an abused wife. Is this a widely held self perception?

Yes.

hirplesWithHaggis thanks for your post. Iam Scottish, probably no clear though. Just disappointed in what I’m reading.

All through the Scottish referendum people were told, if you leave the uk then you can’t be in the EU. And look what happened.

GreatBlueOwl Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, we were promised that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. I didn't believe we wouldn't be able to rejoin (and was unimpressed with anti-Scots who appeared to enjoy the thought of us suffering in isolation - not very "loving partner" ) but I absolutely understand why others felt differently. Now you see the truth. I guess that must hurt. :(

So, another one welcomed to the dark side. :)

IllHaveALargeGlassOfRed
However, she later meets a nice man, who asks her opinion, treats her with a bit of respect, and shows some appreciation of culture and education. She is actually attracted to this man. So when the opportunity arises she leaves the man who forced himself on her and marries the one she actually fancies and has something in common with.

I am sure the bibulous Jean Claude Junker is delighted you view him this way.

And the "Scotland as abused spouse" analogy - yes, it explains the situation well. An unwilling bride in a political marriage which has had it's ups and downs over the years and is now nearly over. And it's always most dangerous when you get ready to leave.

I think many Scots feel lied to. In the run up to the referendum we were threatened with dire consequences if we voted for independence. We were given lots of assurances about Scotland getting more rights and more say (the infamous Vow). Immediately after, we were hit with EVEL then the Brexit referendum (more lies). The trust in Westminster to do right by Scotland has well and truly gone.

I'd love to see another indyref and see how much the tide turns. I really hope it happens.

HirplesWithHaggis that’s okay. I understood why thought that.

HirplesWithHaggis
And the "Scotland as abused spouse" analogy - yes, it explains the situation well

Logical

^By your reasoning, the "largest" three economies in the world are

1. Monaco $187,650
2. Liechtenstein $157,040
3. Luxembourg $116, 745

(GDP per person USD 2014) In the "per person" calculation, USA is #14, Japan is #34. China and India don't even make it to the Top 60. Smaller population developed countries get an advantage (which us why countries like Norway, Qatar, Macau, Bermuda, Switzerland all appear in the Top 10 (2014 figures)^

And? It is not the size of the economy that is important, it is the £ per head. I would far rather live in some of the countries above than the US or China. It is because of its small population compared to massive resources that Scotland is such a wealthy country.

So when the opportunity arises she leaves the man who forced himself on her and marries the one she actually fancies and has something in common with.

Or a low grade fairy story?

Because they don't like the English and never have? God only knows who in their right mind would enter the EU today though. Maybe it's because they are already in it and don't want to leave as opposed to wanting to enter it.

It is because of its small population compared to massive resources that Scotland is such a wealthy country.

Yet despite this HUGE wealth, still manages to spend far more every year than it raises in taxation revenue.

Was no and then remain. Still no.

Scotland is coming out of the EU and there's no changing that.

I don't see why I'm supposed to love my neighbours on the continent but feel abused by my neighbours that I can practically see from my upstairs windows.